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From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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To: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable
	riskless or risky lending,
	prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
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> On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:12, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On Jul 6, 2019, at 01:16, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Good morning Eric,
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original M=
essage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
>> On Saturday, July 6, 2019 3:27 AM, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:=

>>=20
>>>> On Jul 4, 2019, at 21:05, ZmnSCPxj ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com wrote:
>>>> Good morning Eric,
>>>>=20
>>>>> As with Bitcoin mining, it is the consumed cost that matters in this s=
cenario, (i.e., not the hash rate, or in this case the encumbered coin face v=
alue). Why would the advertiser not simply be required to burn .1 coin for t=
he same privilege, just as miners burn energy? Why would it not make more se=
nse to spend that coin in support of the secondary network (e.g. paying for c=
onfirmation security), just as with the burning of energy in Bitcoin mining?=

>>>=20
>>> Good morning ZmnSCPxj,
>>>=20
>>>> Using the unspentness-time of a UTXO allows for someone advertising a s=
ervice or producer to "close up shop" by simply spending the advertising UTX=
O.
>>>> For instance, if the advertisement is for sale of a limited stock of go=
ods, once the stock has been sold, the merchant (assuming the merchant used o=
wn funds) can simply recover the locked funds, with the potential to reinves=
t them elsewhere.
>>>> This allows some time-based hedging for the merchant (they may be willi=
ng to wait indefinitely for the stock to be sold, but once the stock is sold=
, they can immediately reap the rewards of not having their funds locked any=
more).
>>>=20
>>> This is a materially different concept than proposed by Tamas.
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C...he gives up his control of the coins until maturity, he can n=
ot use them elsewhere until then.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Possibly.
>> In a way, this is giving up control of the coin, until he no longer needs=
 the advertisement, i.e. dynamically select the maturity age needed.
>>=20
> My proposal would separate the owner of the funds from the one using the a=
dvertizement service.

No, it would not. I have seen no proposal requiring identity in the two role=
s, which is necessary to show that two distinct individuals operate in the r=
oles. Furthermore, even identity would be insufficient, as two individuals c=
an clearly collude in these roles.

> Yes, the owner lock up until maturity. But those using the UTXO for the ad=
vertizement service could transfer (sell) the UTXO to someone else as soon a=
s they do not need it, so it is dynamic maturity for them The new owner coul=
d use them for an other advertizement or for an entirely different purpose.

Agree, and it is the unremovable time constraint that ensures the opportunit=
y cost. This is why in your proposal it is of no consequence that both roles=
 can be the same person.

> Regarding burning: I think burning is unsustainable as usage of services i=
s unlimited while coin suply is limited.=20

Loss is perpetual, so this implies Bitcoin is unsustainable.

>>>=20
>>> And as I have shown above, nor can a =E2=80=9Clocked-up=E2=80=9D coin be=
 unlocked to do the same.
>>=20
>> You have shown no such thing, merely shown that you have not understood t=
he proposal.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> ZmnSCPxj
>=20
> I also struggle to communicate to Eric and likely many other reader the ge=
neric utility of temporary control of an UTXO. Let me try again:

No, you do not. This is not the point at issue. See my previous response.

> Bitcoin offers a memory with remarkable properties:
> - it can be read by anyone anywhere
> - anyone anywhere who knows a key controlling an UTXO, and only them, can i=
nitiate an update to the memory
> - global replicas guaranteed to apply updates of the memory within a short=
 time period.
>=20
> This is a utility that is sufficient to implement money.=20

No, it isn=E2=80=99t. Ownership must be perpetually (actually) transferable,=
 not just known. The use of a covenant breaks this transferability, see prev=
ious posts.

> Such a reliable shared memory could have however more uses than tracking m=
oney, It could keep track of, and thereby make scarce, arbitary other things=
.

For the same reason this cannot work for money, it cannot work for any perpe=
tual asset. See previous posts.

> We can unlock these uses by separating the money use of memory from other u=
ses.=20
>=20
> The covenant achives this separation temporarily. A UTXO with a covenant t=
hat guarantees that current owner re-gains control at a later time means,=20=

> that the current owner temporarily forgoes the UTXOs use as money and ther=
eby allows its temporary use to keep track of something else.

Only if the asset expires at or before the covenant maturity.

> UTXOs with different covenants or without covenant are not fungible.

Of course.

> Why use UTXOs of significant value to track something that is not money? B=
ecause the reason the registry is used is to create scarcity and scarcity ca=
n be tailored to more or
> less severe by requiring more or less satoshis to track something.

Only 1 satoshi is required for tracking. It is only the scarcity of a satosh=
i that creates this scarcity, not the covenant on it. The covenant represent=
s only the destruction of opportunity of the value represented by the 1 sato=
shi, not a new system of scarcity.

> The current owner of a regular UTXO will want to be paid for temporarily g=
iving up control, and that payment represents interest.

Yes, opportunity cost.

> Riskless, since it is certain to re-gain control.

But of no value to anyone as money.

Best,
Eric

> Regards,
>=20
> Tamas Blummer

--Apple-Mail-5BDE4D26-59D3-454D-BC29-BFDC27E8AB91
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:12, Tamas Blummer &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:tamas.blummer@gmail.com">tamas.blummer@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><meta http-equiv=3D=
"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8"><br class=3D""><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 6, 2019, at 01:16, Z=
mnSCPxj &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com" class=3D"">ZmnSCPxj@p=
rotonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><d=
iv class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s=
tyle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing=
: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-s=
pace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none=
; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Good morning Eric,</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varian=
t-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: sta=
rt; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fo=
nt-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px=
; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter=
-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;=
 white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; flo=
at: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Sent with ProtonMail Secur=
e Email.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-st=
yle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:=
 normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-sp=
ace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">=
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ca=
ps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0p=
x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;"=
 class=3D"">=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 O=
riginal Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=
=90</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: n=
ormal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: norma=
l; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n=
ormal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-va=
riant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !im=
portant;" class=3D"">On Saturday, July 6, 2019 3:27 AM, Eric Voskuil &lt;</s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: no=
rmal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:=
 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:=
 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D"">eric@voskuil.org</a><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; let=
ter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: no=
ne; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; f=
loat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt; wrote:</span><br st=
yle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-var=
iant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spac=
ing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps=
: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wi=
dows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Jul 4=
, 2019, at 21:05, ZmnSCPxj <a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com" class=3D=
"">ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com</a> wrote:<br class=3D"">Good morning Eric,<br cl=
ass=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">As with Bitcoin=
 mining, it is the consumed cost that matters in this scenario, (i.e., not t=
he hash rate, or in this case the encumbered coin face value). Why would the=
 advertiser not simply be required to burn .1 coin for the same privilege, j=
ust as miners burn energy? Why would it not make more sense to spend that co=
in in support of the secondary network (e.g. paying for confirmation securit=
y), just as with the burning of energy in Bitcoin mining?<br class=3D""></bl=
ockquote></blockquote><br class=3D"">Good morning ZmnSCPxj,<br class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Using the unspentness-time=
 of a UTXO allows for someone advertising a service or producer to "close up=
 shop" by simply spending the advertising UTXO.<br class=3D"">For instance, i=
f the advertisement is for sale of a limited stock of goods, once the stock h=
as been sold, the merchant (assuming the merchant used own funds) can simply=
 recover the locked funds, with the potential to reinvest them elsewhere.<br=
 class=3D"">This allows some time-based hedging for the merchant (they may b=
e willing to wait indefinitely for the stock to be sold, but once the stock i=
s sold, they can immediately reap the rewards of not having their funds lock=
ed anymore).<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is a materially d=
ifferent concept than proposed by Tamas.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=E2=80=
=9C...he gives up his control of the coins until maturity, he can not use th=
em elsewhere until then.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps=
: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; te=
xt-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px=
; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: He=
lvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Po=
ssibly.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-sty=
le: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac=
e: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin=
e !important;" class=3D"">In a way, this is giving up control of the coin, u=
ntil he no longer needs the advertisement, i.e. dynamically select the matur=
ity age needed.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; wh=
ite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D""><br></div></blockquote><div>My proposal would separate the owner of th=
e funds from the one using the advertizement service.</div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>No, it would not. I have seen no proposal requir=
ing identity in the two roles, which is necessary to show that two distinct i=
ndividuals operate in the roles. Furthermore, even identity would be insuffi=
cient, as two individuals can clearly collude in these roles.</div><br><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div> Yes, the owner lock up unti=
l maturity. But those using the UTXO for the advertizement service could tra=
nsfer (sell) the UTXO to someone else as soon as they do not need it, so it i=
s dynamic maturity for them The new owner could use them for an other advert=
izement or for an entirely different purpose.</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>Agree, and it is the unremovable time constraint that en=
sures the opportunity cost. This is why in your proposal it is of no consequ=
ence that both roles can be the same person.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Regarding burning: I think burning is unsusta=
inable as usage of services is unlimited while coin suply is limited.&nbsp;<=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Loss is perpetual, so this=
 implies Bitcoin is unsustainable.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-st=
yle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:=
 normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-si=
ze-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
And as I have shown above, nor can a =E2=80=9Clocked-up=E2=80=9D coin be unl=
ocked to do the same.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: no=
rmal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">You have shown=
 no such thing, merely shown that you have not understood the proposal.</spa=
n><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-=
align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; w=
ord-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"f=
ont-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-cap=
s: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0p=
x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">R=
egards,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-sty=
le: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac=
e: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin=
e !important;" class=3D"">ZmnSCPxj</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D=
""><div class=3D"">I also struggle to communicate to Eric and likely many ot=
her reader the generic utility of temporary control of an UTXO. Let me try a=
gain:</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, you do not. This is no=
t the point at issue. See my previous response.</div><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Bitcoin offers a memory with remarka=
ble properties:</div><div class=3D"">- it can be read by anyone anywhere</di=
v><div class=3D"">- anyone anywhere who knows a key controlling an UTXO, and=
 only them, can initiate an update to the memory</div></div></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">- global replicas gu=
aranteed to apply updates of the memory within a short time period.</div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a utility that is s=
ufficient to implement money.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>No, it isn=E2=80=99t. Ownership must be perpetually (actually) transfera=
ble, not just known. The use of a covenant breaks this transferability, see p=
revious posts.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"">Such a reliable shared memory could have however more uses than track=
ing money, It could keep track of, and thereby make scarce, arbitary other t=
hings.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For the same reason this c=
annot work for money, it cannot work for any perpetual asset. See previous p=
osts.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">We=
 can unlock these uses by separating the money use of memory from other uses=
.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The covena=
nt achives this separation temporarily. A UTXO with a covenant that guarante=
es that current owner re-gains control at a later time means,&nbsp;</div><di=
v class=3D"">that the current owner temporarily forgoes the UTXOs use as mon=
ey and thereby allows its temporary use to keep track of something else.</di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only if the asset expires at or bef=
ore the covenant maturity.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"">UTXOs with different covenants or without covenant are no=
t fungible.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course.</div><br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Why use UTXOs of s=
ignificant value to track something that is not money? Because the reason th=
e registry is used is to create scarcity and scarcity can be tailored to mor=
e or</div><div class=3D"">less severe by requiring more or less satoshis to t=
rack something.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only 1 satoshi i=
s required for tracking. It is only the scarcity of a satoshi that creates t=
his scarcity, not the covenant on it. The covenant represents only the destr=
uction of opportunity of the value represented by the 1 satoshi, not a new s=
ystem of scarcity.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"">The current owner of a regular UTXO will want to be paid for tempo=
rarily giving up control, and that payment represents interest.</div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 2=
55, 255, 0);">Yes, opportunity cost.</span></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Riskless, since it is certain to re-gain=
 control.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But of no value to any=
one as money.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eric</div><br><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=
=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Tamas Blummer</div></div></blockq=
uote></body></html>=

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