path: root/95/1532c8579107cca3cf6d95a745de57991ae8bd

Return-Path: <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63E4FAB
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  8 Jan 2018 15:33:21 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-wm0-f54.google.com (mail-wm0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CE81557
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  8 Jan 2018 15:33:20 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 9so14826993wme.4
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:33:20 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
	h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
	:cc; bh=++B1V9cXZOLlOLQLpUsb9fXMc+vjKRAY3Nsv824m6bI=;
	b=nHnlHzoW5NNEV3X5+KMnAGSZxIRPCqVMdIHBGXdRrLdsh4BICfGV0gc7PKwlvcuIHh
	znPBFJK2QCgugVe/uwLMAxVv9YkRaziUmLdgxzRbjrF0rBiHQWWIuXN3ZMkVj+dqoYvx
	Jx+XtzbZtBvyMEd/hN95Rlqx9ye5seEOtGy9Tt4TrzHYH3DpteHWmadmRYGSXVGeZVpv
	ZCgVdmg0/27UxAF+GxZcuO/yD9A6/9bqX2DKksN4a26aqW9OBfube1cMzlrJ9YvZv+vK
	ORo10IjRp5XVXNRgiGnK/MkuqCCHQuCZvAiyWrV9zeNcAXNNxVMwhMzYwM/G9IM4bZOp
	ROeA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date
	:message-id:subject:to:cc;
	bh=++B1V9cXZOLlOLQLpUsb9fXMc+vjKRAY3Nsv824m6bI=;
	b=SPdGIdiqVPlCnFEHvjOU/1xsaD5uUb6p7DgU7eiqcacfvRzwYx28Me1x6KudOsDguE
	6s13XHzhwKyu59/BO++ZpyjYPX79wzhZvj5OuKT1F6D0G5fanwZb0zVhI2TRrreMrstW
	5l4b+Xm7+M7zc3BjdHNknD55yLbAw9N58LMIlOeAFRMtklP8z2mMEEhh3ouU1LL9mCLq
	DMDs442/dx1adXqAUCfGUo5ESTLh404gkGjhLNyKiY8SBQ/ifaHlw0SbeyuHbli/duZf
	aVOEaLNZ9SrBmDT7LbjfAfXf7B38+abuQqx/8eYFEQaWOpNj4qG+DAiZunGOLOorrPKa
	CB4A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLMtltk7eetLdQLVVF5yTxLo165zhNO5JwlSm+12lofpwD6rK5i
	MkmNilDEyvhVymP4tnBM2/ws78JSHhPF+y32lqU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosZclt4zNK2AMemwQyqn1cKd/2b/6heuG+hSkriBCRKRrETJZHqWxZZnMDkwzeFE6FAiaTcj+rr3i5WzdLaAD8=
X-Received: by 10.80.173.238 with SMTP id b43mr17691029edd.143.1515425598847; 
	Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:33:18 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.80.204.7 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:32:58 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone>
	<d05bfa26-4f3d-77d1-5801-9ad59497f334@satoshilabs.com>
	<CACvEmnGcN+VtgK0MeRPBevRoMkyJrMOBQKLZP4NnLBc5+q8Cyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<eb643e5734bceeb918d116fb75c0d4b3@nym.zone>
	<CAB3F3DvcjSRHLYv16SsSb22TxyfdMrsKW-Z4pChEiuTmhG3KYQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+vKqYfo-G4oS4jZpL1_7sx9aTVKcje9NdjCs3Pu9JwW5-GTMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 10:32:58 -0500
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DskrNYLBrq58saQD1++Tad3JS11vCrXdJcpgqyNwfu8pg@mail.gmail.com>
To: AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5"
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM,
	HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
	wordlists
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:33:22 -0000

--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>I'm shocked that so many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* t=
here
could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or
cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English
language.


You're mistaking concern for users potentially losing money with disdain
for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise users to use a
wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet
implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse.

If I'm wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their native
language in a safe manner!

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people
> explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so
> many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be
> people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use t=
he
> strict set of latin characters and words from the English language.
>
> I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just
> map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is
> there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a
> clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum.
>
> As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error
> correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting wha=
t
> they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus
> reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup.
>
> Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been
> more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to wh=
y
> we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a sing=
le
> language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed"
> for those who don't speak English.
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>
>> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
>> Copay users have their backup on a language
>> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new
>> languages in BIP39.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the mak=
ing
>>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=
=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English
>>>>>>> words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "=
aneter"
>>>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brai=
n
>>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing d=
own.
>>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter f=
or
>>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier
>>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,
>>>>>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to
>>>>>> entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully=
 write
>>>>>> this down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=
=82=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=
=82=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
>>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=
=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=
=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Approximate translation:  =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin=
 had been
>>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking
>>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=
=E2=80=99s
>>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=
=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=
=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=
=81=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
>>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=
=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=
=82=93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=
=81=8F
>>>>>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=
=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=
=81=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=
=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>>>> hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* mo=
ney on
>>>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that man=
y
>>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  The=
n think
>>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family=
 and
>>>>>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folk=
s needed to
>>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=
=9D at all.  A
>>>>>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wh=
olly alien writing
>>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings=
.  The
>>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D=
 for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not
>>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world=E2=80=99s most in=
efficient means
>>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an
>>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>>>> users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independe=
nt
>>>>>> implementations.  =E2=80=94  I asked, because obviously, I myself do=
 not speak all
>>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into
>>>>>> criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about=
 other
>>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=
=80=9CEnglish
>>>>>> only!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in eve=
r
>>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restr=
icted
>>>>>> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standa=
rd
>>>>>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlist=
s, and four more
>>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate
>>>>>> for use with that standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the
>>>>>> foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed
>>>>>> characters.  I thought of this after I searched for and collected so=
me
>>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC..=
.  It
>>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00
>>>>>> 591B2F307E0C
>>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested=
:
>>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you ha=
ve nothing to hide.=E2=80=99
>>>>>> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=94 nullius
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
>>>> @ematiu
>>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
>> @ematiu
>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>

--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;I&#39;<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">m shocked that =
so many people are resisting the idea that=C2=A0just=C2=A0</span><i style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px">maybe</i><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0there=
 could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cann=
ot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English langua=
ge.</span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px">You&#39;re mistaking concern for users potentially losing money wit=
h disdain for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise user=
s to use a wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet impl=
ementations, resulting in lock-in or worse.</span></div><div><br></div><div=
>If I&#39;m wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their na=
tive language in a safe manner!</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ajwest@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ajwest@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of peopl=
e explaining how they use languages other than English. I&#39;m shocked tha=
t so many people are resisting the idea that=C2=A0just=C2=A0<i>maybe</i>=C2=
=A0there could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use=
 or cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the Englis=
h language.<div><br></div><div>I agree with=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px;white-space:nowrap">Sjors and m</span>aybe I&#39;m simplifying too mu=
ch, but can&#39;t we just map an existing ISO/UTF language character standa=
rd to the seeds? Why is there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encodin=
g standard, create a clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checks=
um.</div><div><br></div><div>As an aside, I know there are some conventions=
 which add space for error correction but I personally don&#39;t love the i=
dea of somebody inputting what they think is the proper seed, only to have =
it auto-corrected and thus reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed=
 backup.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;white-spa=
ce:nowrap">Pavol, why do you say &quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8=
px">I=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">learned that it was some=
thing I should&#39;ve been more persistently against?&quot; I still can&#39=
;t see any good arguments as to why we should limit this to English other t=
han &quot;It&#39;s easier to support a single language&quot; which comes at=
 the cost of &quot;It&#39;s hard for me to backup my seed&quot; for those w=
ho don&#39;t speak English.</span></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div cl=
ass=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon=
, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=
=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>&gt;=C2=A0<span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users =
to actually use it?</span><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038=
594159325gmail-yj6qo m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325gmail-ajU"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></div><br></span>yes. Based on language stats f=
rom the app stores, roughly 30% to=C2=A040% of Copay users have their backu=
p on a language<div>other than English, and we constantly get requests to s=
upport new languages in BIP39.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488=
741049861HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861h5"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Gr=
eg Sanders <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gsanders87@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gsanders87@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing fo=
r users to actually use it?</div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-663=
4967038594159325HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-663496703859=
4159325h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon=
, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ematiu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ematiu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 =
at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev=
@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><span><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Has anyone actually used th=
e multilingual support in bip39?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></span><div>Copay (and all its clones) use it.=C2=A0</div><=
div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147=
884098865h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><=
div>If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and i=
sn&#39;t supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mis=
take to add it in the first place, since it&#39;s a footgun in the making f=
or some poor sap who can&#39;t even read English letters when almost all do=
cumentation is written in English.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-66=
34967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395h5">On Mon, Jan=
 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-66=
34967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395h5"><span>On 20=
18-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=
=E3=81=AA &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
kinoshitajona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
This is very sad.<br>
<br>
The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.<br>
<br>
I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he =
kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down &quot;aneter&quot; fo=
r &quot;amateur&quot;...<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces=
ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not=
 many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, =
taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
Defining &quot;everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=
 plan for&quot; is not a good way to move forward as a currency.<br>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea=
se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.<br>
<br>
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the=
ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2=
=80=94then later, type it back in:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3=
=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=
=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3=
=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80=
=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=
=E3=81=A4<br>
<br>
(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h=
ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk=
ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=
=80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=
=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=
=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=
=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=
=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=
=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=
=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91<br>
<br>
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2=
=A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on=
 the inverse case.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan=
ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think=
 of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f=
riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed=
 to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.<br=
>
<br>
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at =
all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber=
ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p=
seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr=
ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing=
 with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient=
 means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja=
panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po=
sted for other languages?<br>
<br>
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g=
uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement=
ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s=
peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0=
 *All.*<br>
<br>
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody=
 has squarely addressed the substance of my question.<br>
<br>
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of =
multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language=
s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o=
nly!=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple=
menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng=
lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle=
d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four =
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br>
<br>
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use=
 with that standard.<br>
<br>
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2=
=A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2=
=A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc=
inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go=
 without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)<div class=3D"m_-4=
436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_70151193694=
42535395m_-6034384190307218273HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m=
_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395m_-60343841=
90307218273h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C=
<br>
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<=
br>
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE=
)<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth=
ing to hide.=E2=80=99<br>
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius<br>
</div></div><br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>______=
___________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><span class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-=
6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><b=
r><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049=
861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395gmail_s=
ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas A=
lejo Garcia<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we&#39;re going, we don&#39;t need r=
oads!</div></div>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garci=
a<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we&#39;re going, we don&#39;t need roads!</div=
></div>
</div>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5--