path: root/8f/6999cfaa9bb979636ba0dffba3f91def08873b

Return-Path: <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 231651088
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:45:58 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-oi0-f45.google.com (mail-oi0-f45.google.com
	[209.85.218.45])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CF5B413
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:45:57 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-oi0-f45.google.com with SMTP id j188so14186560oib.6
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:45:57 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
	h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
	:cc; bh=lyOQbVHOTUohRZXpRkU+CravQLuqRY+Xjr5b/ViiHjc=;
	b=ZfIqw+b+tXk/wRWGosD9AAWaBbZoAu/pfk176TFIHfyQ1Y+6vHvoU6AVtIB/bNS7ZM
	Sngoy6EKb21hcVeOEptvHtZzh4EsOl8NHtoairhZQn2d/fTl3c3KpH/Ag3wrMfZNXpOQ
	8Xs3+cFRKdkmbfoXJFIj9OeNjKyZw3n4br6Dk6NjkfxkDEwCPj/QG/vp30qKorEKm010
	tCbFAUvz2EvCUdQLpbuA7r8sGbHU/qVEiDuwUz971Lcn0h7Nm0MGVJpTRzmY1SrWqqQR
	GI5RdG6bmrjN7jpy9uGplYkZ4MrpnKIJyQsGugrpV4AXuBTzaEny20WAtrtfsd7aMeLA
	DWnA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date
	:message-id:subject:to:cc;
	bh=lyOQbVHOTUohRZXpRkU+CravQLuqRY+Xjr5b/ViiHjc=;
	b=i6SmH0r/dAkeZ2mjrJMsINDx5hw10jlOy8yv7I+uNj2NdqIa4jKiO5xFcTpZxvF0qx
	/mkbXR5VHs1uhGiXdh5NonNUYKUjykdwR5x28olwxRlfMfSlepqbpfaWLcgN9h7DzWJq
	v3qmsAC7Bj1DZT5mqGKLwsYB1qdyrzOMfg5YPPN6R3vdllgLI7x4T1GJueqLSmNGSkCh
	wuBlzE/VuC9wRnR86k50vz5mAjnSRDkvbjWKDCxdMrJm/td3C4l+Pj7JSPEybm/8ks4j
	IMxixXdEWozafrVMMxPNnaA7+vYtn6xo+x8GA5IKq/6k3D2ThZOWuh2stHHTCMi/ZNSf
	liMA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBliU9guW8u+CWOyKETjFqqsXHOOyQvJEdHKBBIVxCXxoFCbEGH
	wXMw9O0+CWjemnNZG41IRxvy6nc5/7dHwYMSsqWi3g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226RCAaR/2xsiwN2Qg1eHw1pWoN1w3GA0OviZHdEYrMqt739qkFzJkhH2PZCPFnrn8OdyWUYvUaCXup/vdnTkqM=
X-Received: by 10.202.204.212 with SMTP id c203mr1123417oig.156.1518536756524; 
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:45:56 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.74.129.89 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:45:55 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAJQ0i9vDWqryxni6sEx1NDHjLpUCCH=F=t0s2p-seYYtyhuosw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <65F92B37-48C1-4CD5-8F17-47BF9BD231A9@gmail.com>
	<CAAt2M1-fEnQxjX40c-sjUYpfLpJtS-fy5t244vUOZSb8Pm=MrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADL_X_cNdhydrn0D0vXSXK1s42dC7-n_7oW2TQJcpvkG6Oa0ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJQ0i9vDWqryxni6sEx1NDHjLpUCCH=F=t0s2p-seYYtyhuosw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:45:55 -0500
Message-ID: <CADL_X_c=+YtLfyOn3fucyQEc5wtpmpXMNaJzvCPOc+cw-POOkw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian Lockhart <brianlockhart@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134f72ef37b02056519e32d"
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
	=?UTF-8?Q?JOSE_FEMENIAS_CA=C3=91UELO?= <jose.femenias@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Possible change to the MIT license
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:45:58 -0000

--001a1134f72ef37b02056519e32d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Anyone who feels so inclined is free to "pick up the mantle" and defend
Bitcoin against perceived social attacks. I don't think that Bitcoin
protocol developers have any particular responsibility to do so, and as
such this particular discussion is likely going to quickly veer off-topic
for this mailing list.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Brian Lockhart <brianlockhart@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > I don't think that Bitcoin should be reliant upon courts or governments
> to defend itself against attacks of any form.
>
> Agree 100%. Plus yeah, lotsa luck getting any success via those channels.=
..
>
> But assuming the answer to the perceived problem is to =E2=80=9Cfight fir=
e with
> fire=E2=80=9D (using social / marketing based efforts) who =E2=80=9Cshoul=
d=E2=80=9D pick up the
> mantle here? Without inciting riots by asking the question, wouldn=E2=80=
=99t that
> ostensibly be something the Bitcoin Foundation would lead on here? <ducks
> and runs for cover>
>
> In any case, it=E2=80=99s frustrating to watch the ongoing FUD and scamme=
ry going
> unanswered in any =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D capacity.
>
>
> On February 13, 2018 at 7:25:35 AM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev (
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org) wrote:
>
> If I'm understanding the problem being stated correctly:
>
> "Bitcoin is under a branding attack by fork coins."
>
> The proposed solution is to disincentivize fork coins from using the word
> Bitcoin by altering the license terms. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to =
me
> that the words of the license are basically useless unless there is an
> entity that intends to make use of court systems to threaten noncompliant
> projects into submission.
>
> In my opinion, the perceived attack on Bitcoin here is social /
> marketing-based, thus it makes sense that any defense against said attack
> should also be social / marketing-based. I don't think that Bitcoin shoul=
d
> be reliant upon courts or governments to defend itself against attacks of
> any form.
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Natanael via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Den 13 feb. 2018 15:07 skrev "JOSE FEMENIAS CA=C3=91UELO via bitcoin-dev=
" <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>>
>> ***
>> NO PART OF THIS SOFTWARE CAN BE INCLUDED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT THAT USES
>> THE NAME BITCOIN AS PART OF ITS NAME AND/OR ITS MARKETING MATERIAL UNLES=
S
>> THE SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY THAT PROJECT IS FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH THE BITCO=
IN
>> (CORE) BLOCKCHAIN
>> ***
>>
>>
>> That's better solved with trademarks. (whoever would be the trademark
>> holder - Satoshi?)
>>
>> This would also prohibit any reimplementation that's not formally
>> verified to be perfectly compatible from using the name.
>>
>> It also adds legal uncertainty.
>>
>> Another major problem is that it neither affects anybody forking older
>> versions of Bitcoin, not people using existing independent blockchain
>> implementations and renaming them Bitcoin-Whatsoever.
>>
>> And what happens when an old version is technically incompatible with a
>> future version by the Core team due to not understanding various new
>> softforks? Which version wins the right to the name?
>>
>> Also, being unable to even mention Bitcoin is overkill.
>>
>> The software license also don't affect the blockchain data.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

--001a1134f72ef37b02056519e32d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Anyone who feels so inclined is free to &quot;pick up the =
mantle&quot; and defend Bitcoin against perceived social attacks. I don&#39=
;t think that Bitcoin protocol developers have any particular responsibilit=
y to do so, and as such this particular discussion is likely going to quick=
ly veer off-topic for this mailing list.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Brian Lockha=
rt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brianlockhart@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brianlockhart@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-=
space"><span class=3D""><div id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto">&gt; I don&#39;t think that Bitcoin should be rel=
iant upon courts or governments to defend itself against attacks of any for=
m.</div><div id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto"><br></div></span><div id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto">Agree 100%. Plus yeah, lotsa luck getting any =
success via those channels...</div><div id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"m_459735694557790=
465bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;co=
lor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But assuming the answer to=
 the perceived problem is to =E2=80=9Cfight fire with fire=E2=80=9D (using =
social / marketing based efforts) who =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D pick up the =
mantle here? Without inciting riots by asking the question, wouldn=E2=80=99=
t that ostensibly be something the Bitcoin Foundation would lead on here? &=
lt;ducks and runs for cover&gt;</div><div id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_c=
ustomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0=
,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4597356945577=
90465bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">In any case, it=E2=80=99=
s frustrating to watch the ongoing FUD and scammery going unanswered in any=
 =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D capacity.</div><div><div class=3D"h5"> <br> <di=
v class=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_sign" id=3D"m_459735694557790465bloop_=
sign_1518536036721418752"></div> <br><p class=3D"m_459735694557790465airmai=
l_on">On February 13, 2018 at 7:25:35 AM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev (<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bit=
coin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D=
"cite" class=3D"m_459735694557790465clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>





<div dir=3D"ltr">If I&#39;m understanding the problem being stated
correctly:<br>
<br>
&quot;Bitcoin is under a branding attack by fork coins.&quot;
<div><br></div>
<div>The proposed solution is to disincentivize fork coins from
using the word Bitcoin by altering the license terms. I&#39;m not a
lawyer, but it seems to me that the words of the license are
basically useless unless there is an entity that intends to make
use of court systems to threaten noncompliant projects into
submission.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In my opinion, the perceived attack on Bitcoin here is social
/ marketing-based, thus it makes sense that any defense against
said attack should also be social / marketing-based. I don&#39;t think
that Bitcoin should be reliant upon courts or governments to defend
itself against attacks of any form.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Natanael
via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundatio=
n.org</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div><span><br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span><br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>Den 13 feb. 2018 15:07
skrev &quot;JOSE FEMENIAS CA=C3=91UELO via bitcoin-dev&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"m_459735694557790465m_4333531158757201305quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span>***<br>
NO PART OF THIS SOFTWARE CAN BE INCLUDED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT THAT
USES THE NAME BITCOIN AS PART OF ITS NAME AND/OR ITS MARKETING
MATERIAL UNLESS THE SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY THAT PROJECT IS FULLY
COMPATIBLE WITH THE BITCOIN (CORE) BLOCKCHAIN<br>
***<br></span></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That&#39;s better solved with trademarks. (whoever
would be the trademark holder - Satoshi?)=C2=A0=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">This would also prohibit any reimplementation
that&#39;s not formally verified to be perfectly compatible from using
the name.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">It also adds legal uncertainty.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Another major problem is that it neither affects
anybody forking older versions of Bitcoin, not people using
existing independent blockchain implementations and renaming them
Bitcoin-Whatsoever.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">And what happens when an old version is technically
incompatible with a future version by the Core team due to not
understanding various new softforks? Which version wins the right
to the name?=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Also, being unable to even mention Bitcoin is
overkill.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The software license also don&#39;t affect the
blockchain data.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"m_459735694557790465m_4333531158757201305quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>

<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>

<br></blockquote>
</div>
<br></div>


______________________________<wbr>_________________
<br>bitcoin-dev mailing list
<br><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>
<br><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d=
ev" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listin=
fo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1134f72ef37b02056519e32d--