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From: Nick Johnson <nick@ethereum.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 06:38:48 +0000
Message-ID: <CAFz7pMs1iwYtda9qx6b9wNFdp4aakUChpDsgJFrW+AGuTLt_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Conner Fromknecht <conner@enigma.co>, Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Replay attacks make BIP148 and BIP149 untennable
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On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 6:44 AM Conner Fromknecht <conner@enigma.co> wrote:
> I don't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see those two as
> equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value proposition
> of cryptocurrencies.
>
> The state of any cryptocurrency should entirely (and only) be defined by
> its ledger. If the state of the system can be altered outside of the rules
> governing its ledger, then the system isn't secure.
This is true of any blockchain: you can always change the rules with the
consent of the participants.
> It doesn't matter whether the people making those changes are the ones
> that are leading the project or not. An "irregular state change" is a fancy
> term for a bailout.
>
> I'm sure I speak for more than myself in saying that an "irregular state
> change" is equivalent to modifying the underlying ledger. Let's not let
> semantics keep us from recognizing what actually took place.
>
It's not; modifying the ledger would rewrite history, erasing the record of
the original transactions. That's a fundamentally different operation, both
technically and semantically.
> -Conner
>
> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 14:14 Nick Johnson via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:27 PM Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nick,
>>>
>>> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard
>>> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.
>>>
>>>
>>> This sort of email is unhelpful to this conversation, and it certainly
>>> doesn't help with the perception that Ethereum is nothing but a bunch of
>>> hypocritical Bankers 2.0.
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Everyone knows you didn't edit Ethereum Classic, but the the hard fork,
>>> which was re-branded as Ethereum, was edited.
>>>
>>
>> That's not what I was suggesting. My point is that the ledger was never
>> edited. An 'irregular state change' was added at a specific block height,
>> but the ledger remains inviolate.
>>
>> I'm sure I don't have to explain the difference between the ledger and
>> the state to you, or why it's significant that the ledger wasn't (and can't
>> be, practically) modified.
>>
>> -Nick
>>
>>
>>> - Greg
>>>
>>> --
>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with
>>> the NSA.
>>>
>>> On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Nick Johnson <nick@ethereum.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev
>>>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>> > I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not
>>>> > understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of
>>>> experience
>>>> > with them.
>>>>
>>>> Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were
>>>> pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically
>>>> in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing
>>>> their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized
>>>> administrators.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard
>>> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.
>>>
>>> -Nick Johnson
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
--001a11442e4489c14a05516d1b6d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jun 8,=
2017 at 6:44 AM Conner Fromknecht <<a href=3D"mailto:conner@enigma.co">=
conner@enigma.co</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I d=
on't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see those =
two as equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value propos=
ition of cryptocurrencies. <br><br>The state of any cryptocurrency should e=
ntirely (and only) be defined by its ledger. If the state of the system can=
be altered outside of the rules governing its ledger, then the system isn&=
#39;t secure.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is true of any blockchai=
n: you can always change the rules with the consent of the participants.</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> It doesn't matter w=
hether the people making those changes are the ones that are leading the pr=
oject or not. An "irregular state change" is a fancy term for a b=
ailout. <br><br>I'm sure I speak for more than myself in saying that an=
"irregular state change" is equivalent to modifying the underlyi=
ng ledger. Let's not let semantics keep us from recognizing what actual=
ly took place. <br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's not; modifying=
the ledger would rewrite history, erasing the record of the original trans=
actions. That's a fundamentally different operation, both technically a=
nd semantically.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>-Co=
nner <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 201=
7 at 14:14 Nick Johnson via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@l=
ists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org</a>> wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:27 PM Tao Effect <<a href=3D"mailto:conta=
ct@taoeffect.com" target=3D"_blank">contact@taoeffect.com</a>> wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">N=
ick,<div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Please do=
n't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard fork, it&=
#39;s a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.</div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>This sort of=
email is unhelpful to this conversation, and it certainly doesn't help=
with the perception that Ethereum is nothing but a bunch of hypocritical B=
ankers 2.0.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>Everyon=
e knows you didn't edit Ethereum Classic, but the the hard fork, which =
was re-branded as Ethereum, was edited.</div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div>That's not what I was suggesting. My point is that the le=
dger was never edited. An 'irregular state change' was added at a s=
pecific block height, but the ledger remains inviolate.</div><div><br></div=
><div>I'm sure I don't have to explain the difference between the l=
edger and the state to you, or why it's significant that the ledger was=
n't (and can't be, practically) modified.</div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>-Nick</div></div></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>- Greg</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;=
font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:n=
ormal"><br class=3D"m_-8791954477489607022m_-6744943771006540982m_502745071=
3491352794Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-l=
igatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;=
font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-va=
riant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:=
normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">Please do not ema=
il me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-varian=
t-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">=C2=
=A0with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Nick Johnson <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:nick@ethereum.org" target=3D"_blank">nick@ethereum.org</a>> wrote:=
</div><br class=3D"m_-8791954477489607022m_-6744943771006540982m_5027450713=
491352794Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell =
via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao =
Effect via bitcoin-dev<br>
<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not<=
br>
> understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of exper=
ience<br>
> with them.<br>
<br>
Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were<br>
pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically<br>
in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing<br>
their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized<br>
administrators.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Please don't sp=
read misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard fork, it's a si=
mple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.</div><div><br></div><div=
>-Nick Johnson</div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>
--001a11442e4489c14a05516d1b6d--
|
