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From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 00:23:44 +0100
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Workshops and Activation for CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY
 and CHECKSIGFROMSTACK
To: "/dev /fd0" <alicexbtong@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi Floppy,

Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the letter signatories to have also
put their code review along their tag names... Most of the time consensus
changes are a bit more complex than "yes" or "no" or "good" vs "evil" and
I do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hackers on
the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to...

I do remember the Buck O'Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all
the technical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, beyond
the narrow "powwow" of the developers, makes its own opinion on consensus
changes.
In that spirit, in my view it would have been better for each letter
signatory
to explain the technical reasons, trade-offs they see, why they think CTV i=
s
technically solid, etc on their personal blog post or something else...

Anyway, I did concept ACK the BIP119 code branch (for the reasons
explained):
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453

I'm not going to die on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won't also won't
die on a hill for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I'm in the "bored"
camp of devs on the CTV discussion.

I was there when its original author presented it to the world back in 2019=
,
and since then and so far I cannot find reasons how CTV is a technical
hazard
for the bitcoin network (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I'm
not
excited for it, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if
there
are enough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I'm
fine
with it.

Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory of the taproot
workshop it was good, I don't think I'll be able to join the IRC
meetings, though if there are transcripts I'll try to keep an eye
on it.

Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6abca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98

[0]
https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VUR4GQx6bSi=
2ftOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=3D@proton=
mail.com/

Le ven. 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 04:28, /dev /fd0 <alicexbtong@gmail.com> a=
 =C3=A9crit :

> Hi Antoine,
>
> >  Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ tim=
e
> reviewing more CTV code ?
>
> Some of them have reviewed CTV earlier in other pull requests and others
> could be application developers who are interested in the use cases.
>
> > https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can
> transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)
>
> Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [taproot workshops][0] repositor=
y
> useful as well. I will create a new repository for CTV-CSFS workshops,
> meetings etc. to document everything.
>
> Workshop #1
>
> Time: 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC
> Channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat
>
> - Review and understand [BIP 119][1]
> - Create basic CTV transactions on signet
>
> [0]: https://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-workshop
> [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki
>
> /dev/fd0
> floppy disk guy
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmai=
l.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Floppy,
>>
>> The call to review CTV has been published Jun. 9.
>>
>> On this letter, I can count ~60 names.
>>
>> Since the time of publication (2 months after), only 5 people have put a
>> code review comment on #31989.
>>
>> Among the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (average-gary +
>> stuxto).
>>
>> Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ time
>> reviewing more CTV code ?
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Now, of course anyone is free to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try
>> the activation run with that.
>>
>> Personally, I still think we should aim for more neutral consensus
>> development process...
>>
>> This was the intent with the bitcoin contracting primitives WG, done on
>> an open IRC chan.
>>
>> https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can
>> transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)
>>
>> Where rather to present a primitive proposal as a "done deal" from a "po=
w
>> wow" of experts,
>> the goal was to create a neutral online forum for discussion open to
>> anyone in the world
>> who self-estimate they qualify as an expert on bitcoin consensus...and
>> humbly trying to
>> do better than the mess of the 2015 - 2017 period w.r.t consensus change=
s.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>> OTS hash: 0d3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e36ccb6ca0fcef255=
6b
>>
>> Le lundi 18 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=
 :
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat
>>>
>>> I [requested][0] the economic nodes to review different soft fork
>>> proposals and share their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entries were ad=
ded
>>> to the [wiki][1] and nobody has any objections to the proposals. Some
>>> organizations do not want to publicly participate in this process to av=
oid
>>> politics and drama.
>>>
>>> A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025 by bitcoin developers to get
>>> more core contributors involved in the review process. It was followed =
by a
>>> [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combi=
nes
>>> it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don't like that TEMPLATEHASH i=
s
>>> restricted to taproot and don't see anything wrong with
>>> CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY. However, other developers may disagree with me and
>>> have different opinion. I have created an IRC channel for workshops,
>>> meetings, activation, etc.
>>>
>>> We can finalize a meeting schedule so we can use the IRC channel to mov=
e
>>> closer to covenants activation on bitcoin.
>>>
>>> I think BIP 8 would be a better option for the next soft fork.
>>> [Previously][4], some suggestions were [rejected][5] because knots was =
not
>>> used by a large number of users. However, things have changed since the=
n
>>> and [~15%][6] of nodes use knots for bitcoin.
>>>
>>> [0]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQA=
J
>>> [1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support
>>> [2]: https://ctv-csfs.com/
>>> [3]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAA=
J
>>> [4]:
>>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmai=
l.com/
>>> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5Xks1b76jSDym=
p1Bjr--4R8_v3Q@mail.gmail.com/>
>>> [5]:
>>> https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a047=
3d05d634946b4/dev/fd0
>>> [6]: https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=3Dknots#network-snapshot
>>>
>>> /dev/fd0
>>> floppy disk guy
>>>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Floppy,<br><br>Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the le=
tter signatories to have also<br>put their code review along their tag name=
s... Most of the time consensus<br>changes are a bit more complex than &quo=
t;yes&quot; or &quot;no&quot; or &quot;good&quot; vs &quot;evil&quot; and<b=
r>I do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hackers on<br>=
the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to...<br><br>I do remember t=
he Buck O&#39;Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all<br>the tech=
nical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, beyond<br>the n=
arrow &quot;powwow&quot; of the developers, makes its own opinion on consen=
sus changes.<br>In that spirit, in my view it would have been better for ea=
ch letter signatory<br>to explain the technical reasons, trade-offs they se=
e, why they think CTV is<br>technically solid, etc on their personal blog p=
ost or something else...<br><br>Anyway, I did concept ACK the BIP119 code b=
ranch (for the reasons explained):<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin=
/bitcoin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453">https://github.com/bitcoin/bit=
coin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453</a><br><br>I&#39;m not going to die=
 on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won&#39;t also won&#39;t<br>die on a hi=
ll for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I&#39;m in the &quot;bored&quot;=
<br>camp of devs on the CTV discussion.<br><br>I was there when its origina=
l author presented it to the world back in 2019,<br>and since then and so f=
ar I cannot find reasons how CTV is a technical hazard<br>for the bitcoin n=
etwork (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I&#39;m not<br>excited=
 for it, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if there<br>a=
re enough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I&#39;m=
 fine<br>with it.<br><br>Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory =
of the taproot<br>workshop it was good, I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll be able =
to join the IRC<br>meetings, though if there are transcripts I&#39;ll try t=
o keep an eye<br>on it.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6ab=
ca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98<br><br>[0] <a href=3D"ht=
tps://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VUR4GQx6bSi2f=
tOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=3D@protonma=
il.com/">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VU=
R4GQx6bSi2ftOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=
=3D@protonmail.com/</a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_cont=
ainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=A0ven. 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025=
 =C3=A0=C2=A004:28, /dev /fd0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alicexbtong@gmail.com">=
alicexbtong@gmail.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Antoine,<br><br>&gt; =
=C2=A0Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ ti=
me reviewing more CTV code ?<br><br>Some of them have reviewed CTV earlier =
in other pull requests and others could be application developers who are i=
nterested in the use cases.<br><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ariar=
d/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/a=
riard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg</a> (can transfer you the repo owne=
rship if you wish so)<br><br>Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [tapr=
oot workshops][0] repository useful as well. I will create a new repository=
 for CTV-CSFS workshops, meetings etc. to document everything.<br><br>Works=
hop #1<br><br>Time: 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC<br>Channel: #ctv-csfs-activati=
on on libera.chat<br><br>- Review and understand [BIP 119][1]<br>- Create b=
asic CTV transactions on signet<br><br>[0]: <a href=3D"https://github.com/b=
itcoinops/taproot-workshop" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoinops=
/taproot-workshop</a><br>[1]: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/bl=
ob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/=
bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki</a><br><br>/dev/fd0<br>floppy disk guy<=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
antoine.riard@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">antoine.riard@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Floppy=
,<br><br>The call to review CTV has been published Jun. 9.<br><br>On this l=
etter, I can count ~60 names.<br><br>Since the time of publication (2 month=
s after), only 5 people have put a code review comment on #31989.<br><br>Am=
ong the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (average-gary + stuxto).<b=
r><br>Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ ti=
me reviewing more CTV code ?<br><br>...<br><br>Now, of course anyone is fre=
e to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try the activation run with that.<b=
r><br>Personally, I still think we should aim for more neutral consensus de=
velopment process...<br><br>This was the intent with the bitcoin contractin=
g primitives WG, done on an open IRC chan.<br><br><a href=3D"https://github=
.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg" target=3D"_blank">https://gi=
thub.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg</a> (can transfer you the=
 repo ownership if you wish so)<br><br>Where rather to present a primitive =
proposal as a &quot;done deal&quot; from a &quot;pow wow&quot; of experts,<=
br>the goal was to create a neutral online forum for discussion open to any=
one in the world<br>who self-estimate they qualify as an expert on bitcoin =
consensus...and humbly trying to<br>do better than the mess of the 2015 - 2=
017 period w.r.t consensus changes.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>OTS hash: 0d=
3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e36ccb6ca0fcef2556b<br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le lundi 18 ao=
=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi every=
one,<br><br>IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat<br><br>I [requ=
ested][0] the economic nodes to review different soft fork proposals and sh=
are their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entries were added to the [wiki][1]=
 and nobody has any objections to the proposals. Some organizations do not =
want to publicly participate in this process to avoid politics and drama.<b=
r><br>A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025 by bitcoin developers to get =
more core contributors involved in the review process. It was followed by a=
 [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combines=
 it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don&#39;t like that TEMPLATEHASH =
is restricted to taproot and don&#39;t see anything wrong with CHECKTEMPLAT=
EVERIFY. However, other developers may disagree with me and have different =
opinion. I have created an IRC channel for workshops, meetings, activation,=
 etc. <br><br>We can finalize a meeting schedule so we can use the IRC chan=
nel to move closer to covenants activation on bitcoin.<br><br>I think BIP 8=
 would be a better option for the next soft fork. [Previously][4], some sug=
gestions were [rejected][5] because knots was not used by a large number of=
 users. However, things have changed since then and [~15%][6] of nodes use =
knots for bitcoin.<br><br>[0]: <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/g/bitco=
indev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQAJ</a><br>[1]:=
 <a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support" rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support</a><br>[2]: =
<a href=3D"https://ctv-csfs.com/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//ctv-csfs.com/</a><br>[3]: <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoind=
ev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAAJ</a><br>[4]: <a=
 href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5Xks1b76j=
SDymp1Bjr--4R8_v3Q@mail.gmail.com/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmail.com/</=
a><br>[5]: <a href=3D"https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8=
de83e7aa4d2252a0473d05d634946b4/dev/fd0" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a0473d0=
5d634946b4/dev/fd0</a><br>[6]:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=
=3Dknots#network-snapshot" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://bitno=
des.io/nodes/?q=3Dknots#network-snapshot</a><br><br>/dev/fd0<br>floppy disk=
 guy</div>
</blockquote></div>

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ps.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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