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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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> I think Paul has been pretty upfront about the risks of his model.

I think he has been rather misleading in his presentation of the risks.

He outlines them in a very technical manner, yes, but then goes on to =
promote them to lay people as if they're no big deal, which is =
completely misleading.

> By your account bitcoin is already insecure then -- it allows anyone =
can spend outputs that can be claimed by miners.

That is completely different.

It is disingenuous to say the two are remotely similar. The two =
situations have little-to-nothing in common.

In the present situation, anyone-can-spend outputs are used by probably =
less than 0.1% of users, and most software doesn't even allow for the =
possibility.

In Drivechain it's *encouraged-by-design*!

- Greg

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits.com =
<mailto:chris@suredbits.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Greg,
>=20
> The safest way to ensure everyone's protection to make sure *no one =
can do anything*. Then we will ALL be safe ;).
>=20
> >If so, please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.
>=20
> Ok, let's calm down.
>=20
> >If I design a car that has a button that randomly causes the brakes =
to give out if pressed, is that a good idea? Can I justify pushing for =
such a "feature" just because it's "opt-in"?
>=20
> It would be more like "should we allow a car on the road if we know =
statistically that our brakes give out in every 1/100,000,000 cars"? =
There is security risks with everything in life -- we need to quantify =
the risk to see if it is worth taking. I think Paul has been pretty =
upfront about the risks of his model. I think you did a good job of =
demonstrating it in the email I cited too.
>=20
> >It is how *insecure* systems are designed.
>=20
> By your account bitcoin is already insecure then -- it allows anyone =
can spend outputs that can be claimed by miners.
>=20
> >Sure, happy to, as soon as I have it written up in detail.
>=20
> I look forward to this!
>=20
> -Chris
>=20
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com =
<mailto:contact@taoeffect.com>> wrote:
> Dear Chris,
>=20
>> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into =
using drivechains.
>=20
> I have heard this nonsense repeated countless times in order to =
justify adopting Drivechain.
>=20
> This is not how security works.
>=20
> A child can "opt-in" to using a loaded gun, but is it a good idea to =
make it easy for them to do that?
>=20
> No.
>=20
> This is effectively the same thing Drivechains is doing.
>=20
> It is a request to modify the Bitcoin protocol to make it easy for =
Bitcoin users to give their Bitcoins to miners.
>=20
> Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?
>=20
> If so, please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.
>=20
> Security is about making it difficult to shoot yourself in the face.
>=20
> If I design a car that has a button that randomly causes the brakes to =
give out if pressed, is that a good idea? Can I justify pushing for such =
a "feature" just because it's "opt-in"?
>=20
> No. That is fallacy.
>=20
> It is not how secure systems are designed.
>=20
> It is how *insecure* systems are designed.
>=20
>> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
>=20
>=20
> Sure, happy to, as soon as I have it written up in detail.
>=20
> Kind regards,
> Greg Slepak
>=20
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.
>=20
>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits.com =
<mailto:chris@suredbits.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Greg,
>>=20
>> >Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to =
steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.
>>=20
>> If I put my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take =
them. They can do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe =
me :-). You have to be more specific with contract types instead of =
generically talking about 'all contracts ever'.
>>=20
>> > Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security =
guarantees. This you have not denied.
>>=20
>> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into =
using drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are =
unaffected by a drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in =
this thread (and Paul has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a =
different security model than other contracts. Namely they are =
controlled by miners. I think we can all agree this is unfortunate, but =
it is the current reality we live in. I look forward to the day we can =
solve the 'ownership' problem so we can have trustless interoperable =
blockchains, but that day is not today.
>>=20
>> As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivechain =
withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps.
>>=20
>> >There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic =
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.
>>=20
>> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
>>=20
>> =
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.=
html =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.=
html>
>>=20
>> Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something that =
could happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* =
obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any difference between an =
obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick one =
or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware =
of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren't so obvious.
>>=20
>> -Chris
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_535F0622-0BBD-47E9-AAB3-DBCA118AB4C4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=
 charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
think Paul has been pretty upfront about the risks of his =
model.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think he has been rather misleading in his presentation of =
the risks.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">He =
outlines them in a very technical manner, yes, but then goes on to =
promote them to lay people as if they're no big deal, which is =
completely misleading.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">By your account =
bitcoin is already insecure then -- it allows anyone can spend outputs =
that can be claimed by miners.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div>That is completely different.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is disingenuous to say the two are =
remotely similar. The two situations have little-to-nothing in =
common.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the =
present situation, anyone-can-spend outputs are used by probably less =
than 0.1% of users, and most software doesn't even allow for the =
possibility.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
Drivechain it's *encouraged-by-design*!<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Greg</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Chris Stewart &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@suredbits.com" class=3D"">chris@suredbits.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The =
safest way to ensure everyone's protection to make sure *no one can do =
anything*. Then we will ALL be safe ;). <br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&gt;If so, please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's =
security.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Ok, let's calm down. <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt;If I design a car that has a button that =
randomly causes the brakes
 to give out if pressed, is that a good idea? Can I justify pushing for=20=

such a "feature" just because it's "opt-in"?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">It would be more like "should we allow a car on the=20
road if we know statistically that our brakes give out in every=20
1/100,000,000 cars"? There is security risks with everything in life --=20=

we need to quantify the risk to see if it is worth taking. I think Paul=20=

has been pretty upfront about the risks of his model. I think you did a =
good job of demonstrating it in the email I cited too.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div>&gt;It is how *insecure* systems =
are designed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>By your account bitcoin =
is already insecure then -- it allows anyone can spend outputs that can =
be claimed by miners.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt;Sure, happy to, =
as soon as I have it written up in detail.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I look forward to this! <br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-Chris<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Tao Effect <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">contact@taoeffect.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Dear Chris,<span class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I think this is an unfair =
characterization. You have to opt into using =
drivechains.</div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div></span><div =
class=3D"">I have heard this nonsense repeated countless times in order =
to justify adopting Drivechain.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is not how security =
works.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A child =
can "opt-in" to using a loaded gun, but is it a good idea to make it =
easy for them to do that?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">No.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is effectively the same thing Drivechains is =
doing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is a =
request to modify the Bitcoin protocol to make it easy for Bitcoin users =
to give their Bitcoins to miners.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Does that sound like a good idea to =
anyone?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If so, =
please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Security is about making =
it difficult to shoot yourself in the face.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I design a car that has a button =
that randomly causes the brakes to give out if pressed, is that a good =
idea? Can I justify pushing for such a "feature" just because it's =
"opt-in"?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">No. =
That is fallacy.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It is not how secure systems are designed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is how *insecure* =
systems are designed.</div><span class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Care to share? =
I'm unaware if there is.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></span><div class=3D"">Sure, happy to, =
as soon as I have it written up in detail.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Greg =
Slepak</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_3020035057494604851Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">Please =
do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing</span><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""></span><span class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:19 PM, =
Chris Stewart &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris@suredbits.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"">chris@suredbits.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_3020035057494604851Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Greg,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt;Here, you admit that the security of the =
sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot do =
currently.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I put =
my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take them. They can =
do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe me :-). You =
have to be more specific with contract types instead of generically =
talking about 'all contracts ever'. <br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening =
of Bitcoin's security guarantees. This you have not denied.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I think this is an unfair =
characterization. You have to opt into using drivechains. Other outputs =
such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by a drivechain output. As =
Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and Paul has stated all =
along), drivechain outputs have a different security model than other =
contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I think we can all =
agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current reality we live in. I =
look forward to the day we can solve the 'ownership' problem so we can =
have trustless interoperable blockchains, but that day is not today.<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the =
drivechain withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic =
swaps. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt;There is no reason to weaken =
Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic=20
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Care to share? I'm =
unaware if there is. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/=
014600.html" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://lists.<wbr =
class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/<wbr =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.<wbr class=3D"">html</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Everyone should re-read =
this email though, this is something that could happen. Paul's design =
makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* obvious. I guess we can =
argue if there is any difference between an obvious robbery vs a hidden =
robbery, but I think if we have to pick one or the other the choice is =
clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware of) for sidechains had attack =
vectors that weren't so obvious.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">-Chris<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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