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References: <MrhJf_p--3-2@tutanota.de>
 <86b6f138a9dbd2cd1dc4c9166199b319@yancy.lol>
In-Reply-To: <86b6f138a9dbd2cd1dc4c9166199b319@yancy.lol>
From: Thibaut Le Guilly <thibaut@cryptogarage.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 21:05:36 +0900
Message-ID: <CABPZDUxkjSRzCSh1ueq_ONAyc010QsxAshei4gQNpHO10Y31Lg@mail.gmail.com>
To: email@yancy.lol, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Cc: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Bitcoin Advent Calendar] Derivatives and Options
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Hi all,

Did someone say rust-dlc? Just kidding, but wanted to mention that indeed
it's under active development, supports multi oracle contracts and many
other cool things (pretty much everything you can find in the dlc specs)!

Otherwise nice article Jeremy. Maybe you should drop by our monthly DLC
spec meeting one of these days. I'm sure everybody would be happy to hear
how we could improve the Bitcoin derivatives ecosystem with CTV and what
infrastructures or code could be reused from DLCs.

Cheers,

Thibaut

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 7:39 AM yancy via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Prayank,
>
> I believe the p2pderivatives DLC application is still under active
> development here (single oracle):
> https://github.com/p2pderivatives/rust-dlc
>
> I was once involved in the project in a galaxy far far away but haven't
> kept up with the project.  Also, I'm a few days behind in the Bitcoin
> Advent Calendar :)
>
> Cheers,
> -Yancy
>
>
> On 2021-12-24 17:42, Prayank via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > Hi Jeremy,
> >
> >> Wheres the info come from? Well, multiple places. We could get it
> > from a third party (maybe using an attestation chain of some sort?),
> > or there are certain ways it could be self-referential (like for
> > powswap [1]).
> >
> >> Now let=E2=80=99s define a threshold oracle =E2=80=93 we wouldn=E2=80=
=99t want to
> > trust just one lousy oracle, so let=E2=80=99s trust M out of N of them!
> >
> > Similar approach is used in discreet log contracts for multi oracles.
> > There is even a project for P2P derivatives but it was not used for
> > any real trades on mainnet or further developed. What difference would
> > OP_CTV make in this project if its implemented in Bitcoin?
> >
> > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-client
> >
> > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-server
> >
> > https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-oracle
> >
> >> Does this NEED CTV?
> >
> > No, not in particular. Most of this stuff could be done with online
> > signer server federation between you and counterparty. CTV makes some
> > stuff nicer though, and opens up new possibilities for opening these
> > contracts unilaterally.
> >
> > Nicer? How would unilateral derivatives work because my understanding
> > was that you always need a peer to take the other side of the trade. I
> > wish we could discuss this topic in a trading community with some
> > Bitcoiners that even had some programming knowledge.
> >
> > Derivatives are interesting and less explored or used in Bitcoin
> > projects. They could be useful in solving lot of problems.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Prayank
> >
> > A3B1 E430 2298 178F
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] https://powswap.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Did someone say rust-dlc? Just =
kidding, but wanted to mention that indeed it&#39;s under active developmen=
t, supports multi oracle contracts and many other=C2=A0cool things (pretty =
much everything you can find in the dlc specs)!</div><div><br></div><div>Ot=
herwise nice article Jeremy. Maybe you should drop by our monthly DLC spec =
meeting one of these days. I&#39;m sure everybody would be happy to hear ho=
w we could improve the Bitcoin derivatives ecosystem with CTV and what infr=
astructures or code could be reused from DLCs.</div><div><br></div><div>Che=
ers,</div><div><br></div><div>Thibaut</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 7:39 AM =
yancy via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Prayank,<br>
<br>
I believe the p2pderivatives DLC application is still under active <br>
development here (single oracle):<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/p2pderivatives/rust-dlc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://github.com/p2pderivatives/rust-dlc</a><br>
<br>
I was once involved in the project in a galaxy far far away but haven&#39;t=
 <br>
kept up with the project.=C2=A0 Also, I&#39;m a few days behind in the Bitc=
oin <br>
Advent Calendar :)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
-Yancy<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2021-12-24 17:42, Prayank via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Jeremy,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Wheres the info come from? Well, multiple places. We could get it<=
br>
&gt; from a third party (maybe using an attestation chain of some sort?),<b=
r>
&gt; or there are certain ways it could be self-referential (like for<br>
&gt; powswap [1]).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now let=E2=80=99s define a threshold oracle =E2=80=93 we wouldn=E2=
=80=99t want to<br>
&gt; trust just one lousy oracle, so let=E2=80=99s trust M out of N of them=
!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Similar approach is used in discreet log contracts for multi oracles.<=
br>
&gt; There is even a project for P2P derivatives but it was not used for<br=
>
&gt; any real trades on mainnet or further developed. What difference would=
<br>
&gt; OP_CTV make in this project if its implemented in Bitcoin?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-client" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder=
ivatives-client</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-server" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder=
ivatives-server</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pderivatives-oracle" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/p2pderivatives/p2pder=
ivatives-oracle</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Does this NEED CTV?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; No, not in particular. Most of this stuff could be done with online<br=
>
&gt; signer server federation between you and counterparty. CTV makes some<=
br>
&gt; stuff nicer though, and opens up new possibilities for opening these<b=
r>
&gt; contracts unilaterally.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Nicer? How would unilateral derivatives work because my understanding<=
br>
&gt; was that you always need a peer to take the other side of the trade. I=
<br>
&gt; wish we could discuss this topic in a trading community with some<br>
&gt; Bitcoiners that even had some programming knowledge.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Derivatives are interesting and less explored or used in Bitcoin<br>
&gt; projects. They could be useful in solving lot of problems.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Prayank<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A3B1 E430 2298 178F<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Links:<br>
&gt; ------<br>
&gt; [1] <a href=3D"https://powswap.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://powswap.com</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-=
dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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