summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/72/262593ac2766096b94a477344f7f930e7547cd
blob: e63d3cc48a7530bfd45bc05fca62d29adc6416f4 (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
Return-Path: <eric@voskuil.org>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2239FC000E
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:11:10 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B0183BD6
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:11:09 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.895
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001,
 SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id CjK_tYM-9irT
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:11:08 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A17C183BC6
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:11:08 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id i6so3280531pfq.1
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623;
 h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id
 :references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
 bh=tXWbsr+k9ujlLkcYKRhDXJw13+OpJ3L1CAsx7xeT9Gk=;
 b=J/9jZLmWMeSUvhap+C7ULMekOLpp3kQO6BpYU5PxAW+PQycRRdpMDZIPpX69dneh2s
 itBNEYrsPpeqpmezJY3u6Z/6tcs3iGq6dWIsw8KQh/GGMYrpKGb2XbfK4LCpJHgKArhd
 SsscFD4uFCOOji/PYAX9tK3USQgcrllbttiUvndWJf/WYY7+WAxShBQtXTpT1byxfDLr
 TQNgWV3ToqrP2hUevbCOi84l0eulzASp2w5q1cSFyHN1+TDZSZXg5L2O1KloZNknfQtk
 UW3B9E0S8o47vORFrQOUsQvqKLefiMZFZwcyo7Q67Z5orqq38ipAsLZxh0ikCJKkxvU0
 fWgw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version
 :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
 bh=tXWbsr+k9ujlLkcYKRhDXJw13+OpJ3L1CAsx7xeT9Gk=;
 b=ZDkOxMAGwQbdH1/hDIDIWDdBCg0RB1ATWc1ULO33PIRItumHKi3p+WJOs+U8VqvWmN
 D2Pnvnz1CVG3hYDuLGOhPpX0SDiA0hTiQliC4yACGTFcxTDx4l9Td6Jek2lD5DWYnG1o
 DYpQhUA/Y0cXz3gpsxPtayCM7cazt175tUsRObsIt4qMEh9BhnyUZI2r4yfmdlXANSkN
 8//GNuMdKBtXdpMYHD5nOkFoancrNBvVPqprV5+iYqTgJ3rjgxpZVimrd1WLti/0VN5K
 rLpXJXygfrDHbkPgFqKJZfetiYgL1HsZSRY6V7V7qmchq8mOD9xFEuzvYiAZjXvdCnom
 IteA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336ve8CqPcW+/zwgHA76BnseWyQJJPz/cvuRcI2+yLvzoeuqnHi
 ozsbQKyBGZkryW5KtVqc8csQGw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqZMf0u4z83Lkh/kodvbaE1JxqD6eX5QpXnypJ+SqCfFeyp8PFNDwyGaFJnhXdSlspJ4Cjnw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:13a7:b029:309:bfd1:a3f5 with SMTP id
 t39-20020a056a0013a7b0290309bfd1a3f5mr27456144pfg.66.1625076667905; 
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2601:600:9c00:1d0::da55])
 by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b19sm22475570pjh.29.2021.06.30.11.11.07
 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=Apple-Mail-EA8E19DD-BF85-410B-A4BB-89CE8511D16F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 11:11:06 -0700
Message-Id: <45EF3F33-E707-4EE7-B02A-AD8A93474B92@voskuil.org>
References: <CAJ4-pEA=aMEkvLRSHjaHYRf=YBqKuZjdSnim=GTOCfLOUm+o1Q@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAJ4-pEA=aMEkvLRSHjaHYRf=YBqKuZjdSnim=GTOCfLOUm+o1Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18F72)
Cc: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Trinary Version Signaling for softfork
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 18:11:10 -0000


--Apple-Mail-EA8E19DD-BF85-410B-A4BB-89CE8511D16F
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



> On Jun 30, 2021, at 05:45, Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Eric,
>=20
> > A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce t=
hat knowledge
>=20
> It does. Nodes disregard invalid transactions and invalid blocks as if the=
y never existed. It is not possible for any party to transact bitcoin in a w=
ay that violates the set of rules enforced by the network of consensus-compa=
tible nodes that we call Bitcoin.

When Fincen walks into Coinbase and every other exchange (and white market b=
usiness in the country), and tells them to change a rule or they are taking t=
he CEO out in hancuffs for money laundering, I=E2=80=99m pretty sure that th=
eir node with not be able to prevent it.

Enforcement is always people. We use the term node as a metaphorical term fo=
r people who use the node to avoid taking bad money. Like those machines tha=
t test paper money, they offer no resistance themselves.

A node in a closet checking transactions, unconnected to any human actually r=
ejecting the money in trade, offers no resistance to anything. It can be for=
ked off without any consequence whatsoever.=20

This subject was discussed here during the BCH split. People were setting up=
 nodes on cloud services, to boost numbers. These non-economic nodes were of=
 course of no consequence, which was not a matter of debate. I=E2=80=99m exp=
laining to you why that is.

The network ignores non-economic nodes as if they never existed.

> Zac
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>> A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce t=
hat knowledge.
>>=20
>> An economic node is a person who refuses to accept invalid money. A node o=
nly informs this decision, it cannot enforce it. That=E2=80=99s up to people=
.
>>=20
>> And clearly if one is not actually accepting bitcoin for anything at the t=
ime, he is not enforcing anything.
>>=20
>> The idea of a non-economic node is well established, nothing new here.
>>=20
>> e
>>=20
>>>> On Jun 30, 2021, at 04:33, Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>=20
>>> > A node (software) doesn=E2=80=99t enforce anything. Merchants enforce c=
onsensus rules
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=A6 by running a node which they believe to enforce the rules of B=
itcoin.
>>>=20
>>> A node definitely enforces consensus rules and defines what is Bitcoin. I=
 am quite disturbed that this is even being debated here.
>>>=20
>>> Zac

--Apple-Mail-EA8E19DD-BF85-410B-A4BB-89CE8511D16F
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jun 30, 2021, at 05:45, Zac Greenwood &lt;=
zachgrw@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">Eric,<div><br></div><div>&gt=
; A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce th=
at knowledge</div><div><br></div><div>It does. Nodes disregard invalid trans=
actions and invalid blocks as if they never existed. It is not possible for a=
ny party to transact bitcoin in a way that violates the set of rules enforce=
d by the network of consensus-compatible nodes that we call Bitcoin.</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>When Fincen walks into Coinbase a=
nd every other exchange (and white market business in the country), and tell=
s them to change a rule or they are taking the CEO out in hancuffs for money=
 laundering, I=E2=80=99m pretty sure that their node with not be able to pre=
vent it.</div><div><br></div><div>Enforcement is always people. We use the t=
erm node as a metaphorical term for people who use the node to avoid taking b=
ad money. Like those machines that test paper money, they offer no resistanc=
e themselves.</div><div><br></div><div>A node in a closet checking transacti=
ons, unconnected to any human actually rejecting the money in trade, offers n=
o resistance to anything. It can be forked off without any consequence whats=
oever.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This subject was discussed here during=
 the BCH split. People were setting up nodes on cloud services, to boost num=
bers. These non-economic nodes were of course of no consequence, which was n=
ot a matter of debate. I=E2=80=99m explaining to you why that is.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The network ignores non-economic nodes as if they never exist=
ed.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Zac</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 P=
M Eric Voskuil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org">eric@voskuil.org</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid d=
oes nothing to enforce that knowledge.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">An economic node is a person who refuses to accept invalid money.=
 A node only informs this decision, it cannot enforce it. That=E2=80=99s up t=
o people.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">And clearly if on=
e is not actually accepting bitcoin for anything at the time, he is not enfo=
rcing anything.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The idea of=
 a non-economic node is well established, nothing new here.</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">e</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite">On Jun 30, 2021, at 04:33, Zac Greenwood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:za=
chgrw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zachgrw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div d=
ir=3D"auto">Hi Eric,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><spa=
n style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt; A node (software) d=
oesn=E2=80=99t enforce anything. Merchants enforce consensus rules</span><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><br></span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"bo=
rder-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=A6 by running a node which th=
ey believe to enforce the rules of Bitcoin.</font></div><div dir=3D"auto"><s=
pan style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div=
 style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255);color=
:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">A node definitely enforces consensus rules and defines what is B=
itcoin. I am quite disturbed that</font><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,=
0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">&nbsp;this is even being debated here.</span></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><=
/span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:r=
gb(0,0,0)">Zac</span></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-EA8E19DD-BF85-410B-A4BB-89CE8511D16F--