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From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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To: Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Trinary Version Signaling for softfork
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> On Jun 30, 2021, at 05:45, Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Eric,
>=20
> > A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce t=
hat knowledge
>=20
> It does. Nodes disregard invalid transactions and invalid blocks as if the=
y never existed. It is not possible for any party to transact bitcoin in a w=
ay that violates the set of rules enforced by the network of consensus-compa=
tible nodes that we call Bitcoin.

When Fincen walks into Coinbase and every other exchange (and white market b=
usiness in the country), and tells them to change a rule or they are taking t=
he CEO out in hancuffs for money laundering, I=E2=80=99m pretty sure that th=
eir node with not be able to prevent it.

Enforcement is always people. We use the term node as a metaphorical term fo=
r people who use the node to avoid taking bad money. Like those machines tha=
t test paper money, they offer no resistance themselves.

A node in a closet checking transactions, unconnected to any human actually r=
ejecting the money in trade, offers no resistance to anything. It can be for=
ked off without any consequence whatsoever.=20

This subject was discussed here during the BCH split. People were setting up=
 nodes on cloud services, to boost numbers. These non-economic nodes were of=
 course of no consequence, which was not a matter of debate. I=E2=80=99m exp=
laining to you why that is.

The network ignores non-economic nodes as if they never existed.

> Zac
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>> A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce t=
hat knowledge.
>>=20
>> An economic node is a person who refuses to accept invalid money. A node o=
nly informs this decision, it cannot enforce it. That=E2=80=99s up to people=
.
>>=20
>> And clearly if one is not actually accepting bitcoin for anything at the t=
ime, he is not enforcing anything.
>>=20
>> The idea of a non-economic node is well established, nothing new here.
>>=20
>> e
>>=20
>>>> On Jun 30, 2021, at 04:33, Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>=20
>>> > A node (software) doesn=E2=80=99t enforce anything. Merchants enforce c=
onsensus rules
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=A6 by running a node which they believe to enforce the rules of B=
itcoin.
>>>=20
>>> A node definitely enforces consensus rules and defines what is Bitcoin. I=
 am quite disturbed that this is even being debated here.
>>>=20
>>> Zac

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jun 30, 2021, at 05:45, Zac Greenwood &lt;=
zachgrw@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">Eric,<div><br></div><div>&gt=
; A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid does nothing to enforce th=
at knowledge</div><div><br></div><div>It does. Nodes disregard invalid trans=
actions and invalid blocks as if they never existed. It is not possible for a=
ny party to transact bitcoin in a way that violates the set of rules enforce=
d by the network of consensus-compatible nodes that we call Bitcoin.</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>When Fincen walks into Coinbase a=
nd every other exchange (and white market business in the country), and tell=
s them to change a rule or they are taking the CEO out in hancuffs for money=
 laundering, I=E2=80=99m pretty sure that their node with not be able to pre=
vent it.</div><div><br></div><div>Enforcement is always people. We use the t=
erm node as a metaphorical term for people who use the node to avoid taking b=
ad money. Like those machines that test paper money, they offer no resistanc=
e themselves.</div><div><br></div><div>A node in a closet checking transacti=
ons, unconnected to any human actually rejecting the money in trade, offers n=
o resistance to anything. It can be forked off without any consequence whats=
oever.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This subject was discussed here during=
 the BCH split. People were setting up nodes on cloud services, to boost num=
bers. These non-economic nodes were of course of no consequence, which was n=
ot a matter of debate. I=E2=80=99m explaining to you why that is.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The network ignores non-economic nodes as if they never exist=
ed.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Zac</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 2:03 P=
M Eric Voskuil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org">eric@voskuil.org</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">A million nodes saying a transaction is invalid d=
oes nothing to enforce that knowledge.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">An economic node is a person who refuses to accept invalid money.=
 A node only informs this decision, it cannot enforce it. That=E2=80=99s up t=
o people.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">And clearly if on=
e is not actually accepting bitcoin for anything at the time, he is not enfo=
rcing anything.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The idea of=
 a non-economic node is well established, nothing new here.</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">e</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite">On Jun 30, 2021, at 04:33, Zac Greenwood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:za=
chgrw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zachgrw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div d=
ir=3D"auto">Hi Eric,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><spa=
n style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">&gt; A node (software) d=
oesn=E2=80=99t enforce anything. Merchants enforce consensus rules</span><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><br></span></div><div style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"bo=
rder-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=A6 by running a node which th=
ey believe to enforce the rules of Bitcoin.</font></div><div dir=3D"auto"><s=
pan style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div=
 style=3D"background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);border-color:rgb(255,255,255);color=
:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"auto"><font style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">A node definitely enforces consensus rules and defines what is B=
itcoin. I am quite disturbed that</font><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,=
0);color:rgb(0,0,0)">&nbsp;this is even being debated here.</span></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><=
/span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"border-color:rgb(0,0,0);color:r=
gb(0,0,0)">Zac</span></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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