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From: Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 14:19:03 -0500
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To: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Hi Greg,

>Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal
bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.

If I put my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take them.
They can do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe me :-).
You have to be more specific with contract types instead of generically
talking about 'all contracts ever'.

> Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security
guarantees. This you have not denied.

I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using
drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by a
drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and Paul
has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a different security model
than other contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I think we can
all agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current reality we live in. I
look forward to the day we can solve the 'ownership' problem so we can have
trustless interoperable blockchains, but that day is not today.

As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivechain
withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps.

>There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.

Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.

>
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.html

Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something that could
happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* obvious.
I guess we can argue if there is any difference between an obvious robbery
vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick one or the other the
choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware of) for sidechains had
attack vectors that weren't so obvious.

-Chris



On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> There is a difference between replying to an email, and addressing the
> issues that were brought up in it.
>
> I did read your reply, and I chose not to respond to it because it did not
> address anything I said.
>
> Here's an example:
>
> It would not be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. Miners
> do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not control the
> withdrawal-duration nor the withdrawal-frequency.
>
> So, if miners wish to 'steal' from a sidechain, they _can_ initiate a
> theft, but they can not change the fact that their malfeasance will be
> [a] obvious, and [b] on display for a long period of time.
>
>
> Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal
> bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.
>
> You next tried to equate three different types of theft, what you called
> "Classic Theft", "Channel Theft", and "Drivechain Theft", saying:
>
> I do not think that any of the three stands out as being categorically
> worse than the others
>
>
> To anyone who understands bitcoin, there is a very clear, unmistakeable
> difference between double-spending ("Classic Theft"), and *ownership* of
> the private key controlling the bitcoins.
>
> Similarly, to anyone who understands bitcoin, there is also a very clear,
> unmistakeable difference between censorship ("Channel Theft"), and
> *ownership* of the private key controlling the bitcoins.
>
> The entire email was a very long-form way of admitting to all of the
> issues that were raised in the previous email, while making it sound like
> you had addressed the issues.
>
> I am not sure how else to respond to that email, given that none of the
> issues were really addressed.
>
> Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security guarantees.
> This you have not denied.
>
> There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic
> fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.
>
> Kind regards,
> Greg Slepak
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with
> the NSA.
>
> On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:57 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/11/2017 6:41 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Drivechain has several issues that you've acknowledged but have not,
> IMO, adequately (at all really) addressed [1].
>
>
> I replied to your email at length, at [2]. You should read that email,
> and then reply to it with your outstanding objections, if you still have
> them (per the usual customs of a mailing list).
>
> [2]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> 2017-June/014609.html
>
> Adopting DC would be an irreversible course of action,
>
>
> This is false -- it is easily reversible with a second soft fork.
>
> Also, I would say to everyone that, (in my opinion as the OP) this
> conversation will go off-topic if it veers exclusively into 'drivechain
> review'.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

--001a1143ea806c534a055423b0a4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg,<br><br>&gt;Here, you admit that the security=
 of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot d=
o currently.<br><br></div><div>If I put my coins in an anyone can spend out=
put, a miner will take them. They can do this today. I suggest you try it i=
f you don&#39;t believe me :-). You have to be more specific with contract =
types instead of generically talking about &#39;all contracts ever&#39;. <b=
r></div><div><br>&gt; Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin&#=
39;s security guarantees. This you have not denied.<br><br></div>I think th=
is is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using drivechains. O=
ther outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by a drivechain outp=
ut. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and Paul has stated all=
 along), drivechain outputs have a different security model than other cont=
racts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I think we can all agree this =
is unfortunate, but it is the current reality we live in. I look forward to=
 the day we can solve the &#39;ownership&#39; problem so we can have trustl=
ess interoperable blockchains, but that day is not today.<br><div><div><br>=
</div><div>As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivec=
hain withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps. <b=
r><br>&gt;There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin&#39;s security in such a dra=
matic=20
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.<br><br></=
div><div>Care to share? I&#39;m unaware if there is. <br><br>&gt;<a href=3D=
"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.h=
tml">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/0146=
00.html</a><br><br></div><div>Everyone should re-read this email though, th=
is is something that could happen. Paul&#39;s design makes it so that if th=
is occurs it is *VERY* obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any differ=
ence between an obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have=
 to pick one or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I&=
#39;m aware of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren&#39;t so obvio=
us.<br><br></div><div>-Chris<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul =
11, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitco=
in-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Paul,<div><br></div><div>=
There is a difference between replying to an email, and addressing the issu=
es that were brought up in it.</div><div><br></div><div>I did read your rep=
ly, and I chose not to respond to it because it did not address anything I =
said.</div><div><br></div><div>Here&#39;s an example:</div><div><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite">It would not be accurate to say that miners have &=
quot;total&quot; control. Miners<br>do control the destination of withdrawa=
ls, but they do not control the<br>withdrawal-duration nor the withdrawal-f=
requency.<br><br>So, if miners wish to &#39;steal&#39; from a sidechain, th=
ey _can_ initiate a<br>theft, but they can not change the fact that their m=
alfeasance will be<br><div><div>[a] obvious, and [b] on display for a long =
period of time.</div></div></blockquote><div></div><div><div><br class=3D"m=
_6408050088921665722webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Here, you admit th=
at the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, somethin=
g they cannot do currently.</div><div><br></div><div>You next tried to equa=
te three different types of theft, what you called &quot;Classic Theft&quot=
;, &quot;Channel Theft&quot;, and &quot;Drivechain Theft&quot;, saying:</di=
v><div><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>I do not think t=
hat any of the three stands out as being categorically</div><div>worse than=
 the others</div></blockquote><div><br class=3D"m_6408050088921665722webkit=
-block-placeholder"></div><div>To anyone who understands bitcoin, there is =
a very clear, unmistakeable difference between double-spending (&quot;Class=
ic Theft&quot;), and *ownership* of the private key controlling the bitcoin=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly, to anyone who understands bitcoin, t=
here is also a very clear, unmistakeable difference between censorship (&qu=
ot;Channel Theft&quot;), and *ownership* of the private key controlling the=
 bitcoins.</div><div><br></div><div>The entire email was a very long-form w=
ay of admitting to all of the issues that were raised in the previous email=
, while making it sound like you had addressed the issues.</div><div><br></=
div><div>I am not sure how else to respond to that email, given that none o=
f the issues were really addressed.</div><div><br></div><div>Drivechain is =
an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin&#39;s security guarantees. This you h=
ave not denied.</div><div><br></div><div>There is no reason to weaken Bitco=
in&#39;s security in such a dramatic fashion. Better options are being work=
ed on, they just take time.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><di=
v>Greg Slepak</div><span class=3D""><div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;=
font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:n=
ormal"><br class=3D"m_6408050088921665722Apple-interchange-newline">--</spa=
n><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;=
font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:n=
ormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:=
normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-h=
eight:normal">Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable =
also sharing</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-vari=
ant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:n=
ormal;line-height:normal">=C2=A0with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br></span><span class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jul 11, =
2017, at 3:57 PM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_6408=
050088921665722Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>On 7/11/2017 6:41 PM, T=
ao Effect wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Dear Paul,<br><br>Drivechain =
has several issues that you&#39;ve acknowledged but have not,<br>IMO, adequ=
ately (at all really) addressed [1].<br></blockquote><br>I replied to your =
email at length, at [2]. You should read that email,<br>and then reply to i=
t with your outstanding objections, if you still have<br>them (per the usua=
l customs of a mailing list).<br><br>[2]<br><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxf=
oundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014609.html" target=3D"_blank=
">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/<wbr>2017-Ju=
ne/014609.html</a><br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Adopting DC would be an=
 irreversible course of action,<br></blockquote><br>This is false -- it is =
easily reversible with a second soft fork.<br><br>Also, I would say to ever=
yone that, (in my opinion as the OP) this<br>conversation will go off-topic=
 if it veers exclusively into &#39;drivechain<br>review&#39;.<br><br>Paul<b=
r><br><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></span></div></div><br>___=
___________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1143ea806c534a055423b0a4--