1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
|
Return-Path: <pete@petertodd.org>
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75BEC0037
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F17560608
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 8F17560608
Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key,
unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm2 header.b=vBJgs1IQ
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.6
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001,
RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 2PMkw97aKZdm
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:22 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com
[66.111.4.26])
by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B33A260595
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:21 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org B33A260595
Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48])
by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3365C01AE;
Tue, 2 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date
:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to
:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to
:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=
fm2; t=1704237495; x=1704323895; bh=/NfPKmWTyjwjnkJX4HjknWes0dhr
FuEOIvnplt+ZLwo=; b=vBJgs1IQjSnSrUoTY5nyqrBNlHhppRQU5/62pOplDzaM
HFGf5xvz2G11tNxkFUCXQI6dClFdaIPa9jrTbczleoYDOTfVkmW6zK0cOWbiqv7+
Y/F+kvdnZHT1PYOr3xsdbWeGJPfIMUzZU2MeEx9rJFF12V3vYKbEKVKreHTnW5eG
vAEA9pjXuA2zdzlTcBkgNIzwRr686VfDLrQZvyXn0HU68jyBBCGp41yLbYp7od5f
J9qUUhVCIwl+6Jz41jPIOOGodx9i4OFpnza8Zpn7visqdVJ3SMVNLXWH9ABs+OwF
nAilp9MbyKvZe0EQ3J4QeK0sGWSLLzq9y1MteMVXSA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:t5mUZXja9xHub-ILcl9wRYI3crajm_fJfwq2QqKMmlAFRHDNh02_2w>
<xme:t5mUZUDxZRPRYvXaXm3DFD_Wj2msLGMq1wj5CTJ8hOYPRnw0cLF3ZtOqhw3Om2GWh
-k9QG4YYktsV-ErdzA>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:t5mUZXGQh7cgroI72rek5Mh6hOiphnYGHCiRAHlJ2xzeOmiSAu6loRwL3Q>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdeggedgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne
cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv
rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth
gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej
tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii
gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr
ohhrgh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:t5mUZURyjVuZGug58mQKkyx-FHZFqxG1lf4vUi6IWQSU-EQKjt9kfw>
<xmx:t5mUZUyD1pqjiHAdEsGyaCt3YPLSWlVBbgFI2_YPsK0A-xGvbjnbwA>
<xmx:t5mUZa7LQhpyA99Hmqmn-0OL_kLByrNOfDXQhQDisn3m_U083HzxMw>
<xmx:t5mUZevkCG_GRfzCkJVFu4HEERw94B8D2Bt_86zlKdKJGyy-iEYKnw>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue,
2 Jan 2024 18:18:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id 413625F81D; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:11 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 23:18:11 +0000
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Gloria Zhao <gloriajzhao@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZZSZs16f1q6i3oLV@petertodd.org>
References: <ZYMhEJ3y11tnDOAx@petertodd.org>
<CAFXO6=KS05So_5FizLJxCLEPwBxNPV9Wrgi=9sjzmrZ+PLpLOQ@mail.gmail.com>
<ZYNFK5V5e9PnT9eL@petertodd.org>
<CAB3F3DuKxw_osQcW++GeasGVEedcZ16inqrQPoAWQiF4HsGbdw@mail.gmail.com>
<ZYNYgBovvwodqSuZ@petertodd.org>
<CAFXO6=JuMwFjy-Q9h3U8dTr_4TvDjusFFX6orVhXvCG_G8WbOA@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CAFXO6=JuMwFjy-Q9h3U8dTr_4TvDjusFFX6orVhXvCG_G8WbOA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] V3 Transactions are still vulnerable to
significant tx pinning griefing attacks
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:18:24 -0000
--wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 11:12:05AM +0000, Gloria Zhao wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>=20
> > You make a good point that the commitment transaction also needs to be
> included
> > in my calculations. But you are incorrect about the size of them.
>=20
> > With taproot and ephemeral anchors, a typical commitment transaction
> would have
> > a single-sig input (musig), two taproot outputs, and an ephemeral anchor
> > output. Such a transaction is only 162vB, much less than 1000vB.
>=20
> Note that these scenarios are much less interesting for commitment
> transactions with no HTLC outputs, so 162 isn't what I would use for the
> minimum.
What scenarios you consider "interesting" is not relevant. You can't pick an
arbitrary minimum based on an interesting scenario. You should pick an actu=
al
relevant minimum.
So with that in mind, let's ask the question: Do we think it's common for
channels to be force closed without HTLCs pending? I believe the answer is
likely to be yes, because channels are only used some of the time.
Can we verify that? Well, I just checked my node, and out of the past 15 fo=
rce
closes, 12 had no HTLCs outstanding. 2 had one HTLC outstanding, and 1 had 2
HTLCs.
I also checked a big node I'm connected to, fixedfloat. Again, out of the p=
ast
15 force closes, 11 had no HTLCs outstanding, with 4 having 1 HTLC
outstanding... but of those only 2 HTLCs were profitable to collect. The ot=
her
half cost more money in fees than the HTLC value.
Looks to me like the supermajority of force closes are the most boring type.
And those numbers would be even more tilted in that direction if Lightning
implementations had better economics management.
--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----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=Fshp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--wvVYYDvkJthbMm4+--
|
