1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
|
Delivery-date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:24:20 -0700
Received: from mail-oa1-f64.google.com ([209.85.160.64])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDRYHVHZTUGRBHMXS2YAMGQEDFO63SA@googlegroups.com>)
id 1rprc4-0004bP-3W
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:24:20 -0700
Received: by mail-oa1-f64.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-21fde0b279fsf951855fac.3
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1711639454; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=hXCB7E6Lzv2DtKc8VKTvhQop3eiTz0tIRmGgLWd7PGRib8YK/BsjViqsCLq8XSaw9E
goW+veoICoGOntdCyKV8GUbQD0l2Mnv2SjY9zZVC2ttH5uK6yf3lrThxV8bJd8UX3e/h
aqjgzxnjP0u5JtKSgTd0UsL1NskJ5Gq43LgMo88g2AESOGaCIm/+zSFa3DE9h6j03ak1
bFLkW9gML3EaBOGHLb45U2EFNNUHV9gG8z76M+NVmN1BFrN4+MUGt0yuaums4eZXSBxx
zb/nmgVLUbYKtVSzUCWKrmek7WtzdB0zDD+ZDnyaSQURCSMGF+/HrAf281s3/RX6dxgb
JdaA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition
:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date
:feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=LahW+64jiKKqthh/d6dDTfYjfitKlpvCrzBbgquYck8=;
fh=Pgvv88ELNgjL0yEpzRpFYmtO28/Fw18QrZy7AwERl0o=;
b=0c6t2NEkfkiqVqyy5JWZZ19357utGPFkO1VmpOYpTTNMn2uoTo+Sjgrmxn0CrOCiqZ
+w1vKzEcB0kC2jPtx21Ra7OLAfoUhSLGmClj+CAUY1tZT6eC4hrh3APenuB+arQ0WKK4
wJN7GAo0tFgKtw7xxeWT9p6skUGGs04adeHfdTgUnFH2aojfIUZ5nD+gq7Q8tx6zaZqJ
EHYJ+ztQ0qK/dJmqEgN1Lc7BWckA/hl1hAFYC36JeyRTKL8/sAnd6AtWMm2mhrzBx5UV
BnMuBgRLafhEaKcq4fhpDDZtt/1BwnwkV+6wpiMQ0xx/sAeaZqQgy+adoUYsGkOM78ky
4Ymw==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=DIhWEXxb;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 64.147.123.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1711639454; x=1712244254; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender
:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=LahW+64jiKKqthh/d6dDTfYjfitKlpvCrzBbgquYck8=;
b=gH7N3x1VJ2Wm33iq0RnuC+sAYnU321r9SaAe7U/QC0FPZMApDiDLA6hWDSYrgvX6qY
BLJDSJIp2rN+y0RB73ViFpH20EsxM9hQdd0M+6eOnk522W0kzmDP52JZrWrgafbbUCL7
jICmUFN/1tWmJnKzw3SvF80+D/4sA+ldEuslq9GuVdKOGFSLL2TFig2iml/RLqII/A8P
Xg9ihwW3CHfbde4H8xoMEK/hIpG+xxQaAKetfu18ZiM//OJVN4TCzWhS0AJP0SqKr4v5
kswBqqLXr6irjLUnwmMRh3zGCmtD/lh8X/x25djMZwgrDPu0ZKwuZJEOTmcCQbBVWaq3
Co8w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1711639454; x=1712244254;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version
:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id
:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=LahW+64jiKKqthh/d6dDTfYjfitKlpvCrzBbgquYck8=;
b=HfEOmS1E4fOujmxS0KVhzAE8veJl4cYsruVlweHsTOKj/x4FZxMp2TXsduE5gUvwcF
JWmOILpq9z9hFX0fiUaKbhzUbG4JvU9dMv15jeMbE23KwJs9e8OdPyoVSCLsoaNGoA5e
hzLv7sctKztg1djAqhdpninW4j5HftNMzTxt+Vq0RNJ+5XaEXjAcm2DK6SvTPFXMhv8e
FmX/N9whu5lqskcBn+AvDylIBsRVgSibm2Qy3h8EXhhO5Y86JnC872jtATsr7fwKMGbl
HpsdJs12DHb+waU3JXhgC+gwv51RbFlivEdkwdGEEg8uWStPRiMyq0kt9IKwVDK9HOpB
CHkw==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWS5walg65Xq2GOb5+TEoMcCjVxV/6P5z3WRedGWIYGl498sNNNQFN6Snq8HerIkTSV+79VRDjjNfa7LTxmSB0VdyEhJOA=
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzu3+M7XVUHnCF38FnccZy5ZJR4ycYEmKACwZat/ZZBJryamk9r
IpVDLNljaTOgT0PFcjTiBOnV/+XFOWeLgNUo3ZNAei1sXls46iV8
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEtdcdl73ArhvYzd0XxTdEl/K9mGI+UseSyCvG2bl4l2xyPPL9tmX4v+K8f42D/aNpSUmYYMA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:f784:b0:22a:7d6d:8197 with SMTP id fs4-20020a056870f78400b0022a7d6d8197mr3402225oab.21.1711639454098;
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:24:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:a05:6871:430d:b0:229:eefd:98d5 with SMTP id
lu13-20020a056871430d00b00229eefd98d5ls1459867oab.2.-pod-prod-07-us; Thu, 28
Mar 2024 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1491:b0:3c3:7b9b:baf4 with SMTP id e17-20020a056808149100b003c37b9bbaf4mr18019oiw.0.1711639453448;
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1288:b0:3c3:d110:85c6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3c3de9a8da1msb6e;
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:914b:b0:1a3:a0cc:de91 with SMTP id x11-20020a056a20914b00b001a3a0ccde91mr4276294pzc.57.1711639214214;
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1711639214; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=ZyAiwbnuRM0gPz6lxOoLxpsRi3OkjsAcvw94QivfyW76mDNgNLPRRrgaSLBROdEbhE
jWbyZc7/PpvM61GNHk1KHdtieiGlc2eOgeoWeXfAYghjlNOLzDJvqsYMECPR5KTWNsnI
2xZcrz+uLZtx7mPqxQS9N+bjMBIvpKqfaxhU4GGTmVyhhhabP8rbgB1qmEzwCLwr9E3a
ZZSKIQysghqnHEhvPflCAtX8zrTIul3y2Qy2aCmcW3pSrZbaC8aGx9bFkwFLCLdTAuft
1+UwdwH2wdkA/Aj3SM6b+FOB7SW0YsZ0cCpYcdrJFD+cP9dJAJ4rUBhijEPKdJjUscdV
4JFQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id
:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature;
bh=5AhLIjb1ro9JYpc5gbNtfIz3VEhlAOPM0ZKp2Ypg8JU=;
fh=sapDHqhE46zLmMBeB1lkoe0zq8J9+V3Afx71/j8kvug=;
b=q8TpqHhig2NKu/D26pjP5QaRRJZ6wRyhzvrWZEejfXfW9VGR6TRjx5S14gbxaAQKZk
IryNxWmXa52YLJG3tiwsQI4AQmd5dmVvgLGpdMKoHI9hhJ6Sz4lRec2Zx1EljD6v6t2W
CjxGnKvMaCDORHWs8WjCumLdurEsAT84PZ1SspjiR0qnO+wmt1fM+Z/syKisfRMIfqIh
U0mEIOvislsd9tzXR+aof4hBJwHi7/D+bBBwa8gGFQemxwdm6X4z20PNB5lxEkO5SavK
pBgYlubbbI+izZqzFR42n3wo8U1jnshMVnxoQj6Vr4tuRGyr58u0V31PO/47pzpPAXc5
slrg==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=DIhWEXxb;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 64.147.123.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Received: from wfhigh1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wfhigh1-smtp.messagingengine.com. [64.147.123.152])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t36-20020a634624000000b005dc13d8277dsi149961pga.2.2024.03.28.08.20.13
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 64.147.123.152 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.147.123.152;
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47])
by mailfhigh.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C8E18000AD;
Thu, 28 Mar 2024 11:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 28 Mar 2024 11:20:12 -0400
X-ME-Sender: <xms:q4oFZuP27xniK5-CEkFdpdPAexA4C_GBFgiT4FZkycMBMJXU35i6LA>
<xme:q4oFZs8sNl4pSwwpKDTeelLWwOv8J0FHWbKjdNapCl4AjqAcqY-_-7nH0bLnXU951
vMH3lHVmZPtUiPg1Z8>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:q4oFZlRmh5HUXf-qG1PRN8Kf5TdGsIyEoeEnXbZ1raMozY3nEbpIpCMYKi0>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrudduledgjeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne
cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtroertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv
rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth
gvrhhnpedutdffleekiedtfefgteefjefhffeiffevleegtdfhueeffeejveeljeekfefh
ieenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii
gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr
ohhrgh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:q4oFZut16Q7kaWwn1NGckEGjyqtAHxFIwjtk12_mZFHCjpTK9MEi_Q>
<xmx:q4oFZmcbQNQL8uQF83e-IFWSZVIt1w_-WWfs4huMQhXasdmsPKJv8g>
<xmx:q4oFZi3RxA2p2WnhKcd25HXEZhyr178Xwes-OObjVRAxkfIPDi1yBQ>
<xmx:q4oFZq8P1f5oNMjkRTto7tzkx9Yi1qtciH5SmO4trJphqIL7N9FRug>
<xmx:q4oFZuTaJCDFAPu08WgOkgDDV4dbiQIQvlLfw850Z-TY6Djv9SvnsdokzGw>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu,
28 Mar 2024 11:20:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id 579135F87B; Thu, 28 Mar 2024 15:20:08 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2024 15:20:08 +0000
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: A Free-Relay Attack Exploiting RBF Rule #6
Message-ID: <ZgWKqIftBCHBppQV@petertodd.org>
References: <Zfg/6IZyA/iInyMx@petertodd.org>
<0a377ddb-b001-41ba-9208-27b3fa059bb5n@googlegroups.com>
<ZgQZUOCc/dSjKMoL@petertodd.org>
<CALZpt+GOCiwYdK4vfkODrT0Sx6HxCAuvhVqa1c5o3Xjy03OiAQ@mail.gmail.com>
<ZgV+Rk0m4azlbRZP@petertodd.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ow6ij1uRJUB9RTze"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <ZgV+Rk0m4azlbRZP@petertodd.org>
X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=DIhWEXxb; spf=pass
(google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 64.147.123.152 as
permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
--Ow6ij1uRJUB9RTze
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 02:27:18PM +0000, Peter Todd wrote:
> > > Can you explain in more detail how exactly you'd pull that off? Are you
> > aware
> > of LN implementations that actually create feerate ascending LN states?
> >
> > I think you can create feerates ascending LN states with today's LN
> > implementations by playing with BOLT2's `dust_limit_satoshis`.
> > State 1 has 1 dust HTLC trimmed, state 2 has 2 dust HTLCs trimmed, ...
> > State N has N dust HTLCs trimmed.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't believe that the `dust_limit_satoshis`
> value can be changed on an existing channel.
>
> It *should* be possible to change on an existing channel, as the economic dust
> limit is fee-rate dependent. But the protocol does not support that yet IIUC.
Oh, and to expand on this discussion a bit... Assuming that LN implementations
did enable this type of attack, I'll point out that it's essentially based on
having incoming liquidity, which is not free. Either you paid for it by paying
someone to open channels to you. Or you operated a lightning node that provided
sufficiently attractive survice that people chose to open channels to you.
Either way getting that incoming capacity cost you money, probably at similar
if not worse rates than just borrowing BTC.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/ZgWKqIftBCHBppQV%40petertodd.org.
--Ow6ij1uRJUB9RTze
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----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=B4dU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Ow6ij1uRJUB9RTze--
|
