1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
|
Return-Path: <sergej@bitrefill.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32E4C002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:45:29 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8091E4049F
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:45:29 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 8091E4049F
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bitrefill.com header.i=@bitrefill.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=b header.b=BxTbG/DH
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.089
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001,
T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id W7o0zcHe4gPE
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:45:28 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 0DA344025D
Received: from mail-ua1-x932.google.com (mail-ua1-x932.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::932])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DA344025D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:45:27 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ua1-x932.google.com with SMTP id t26so4445383uaj.9
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:45:27 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bitrefill.com; s=b;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=q3NFBqOIgy98iqgwWvmwaiy8yziDie9Z9AgPb33XdyU=;
b=BxTbG/DH2XLBeM9AYSk4FWEIccsia0JE+s8jNCwF8UfivnUrNnXmlF9xf/rUrA29kR
XkuYj8f3wcyNoTD2d/inoBSg64hgBcPeT0A1Zog5i/f/ypiaXubHK8JG1eAbjIQLkAlC
uaqjN0DbKlg5N0eV3+qhJg1Dryq/EYR3srXOHn//I7KbK1J/Pqb4+FZLN8xttIgm35VS
N5Bs27RSSEr/2WCKoi9AFRWMPzMg7BSVtsrAB4G+CP7EOpl2XBPg3cvYys65z8lW4mFC
MU5/rHnodLFLXoNSWpQtlxdF8NtmAxWUjlXQ78apAX88ERaijzqb2WpE6xtkEgQs0QNc
xGyw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=q3NFBqOIgy98iqgwWvmwaiy8yziDie9Z9AgPb33XdyU=;
b=pT7NqOVHaDxSVTOv8OkNTsKPwqmwJAUCLqlT52fRI/DV+qcy2tSWFp9h+0VxJWYy8z
sviz+HahFF8BDl3zmouyPn2Vs1J8/9Q02RQxgtosbLrpx/IabxntuaxEnNBPVK6NMU0s
lU0kHE8Zr8qszAklEjDxPHmqRty94g99NoKTILqRTzrmBsCFNrVTNoLzZWIxQrbMKhw+
lRbZOmcS1z3C9KUA9j5UUj0W2pOc+77Hvf3AWXKI9J9qX26h9poIwK8/YYIYkzIP4rxO
n349lmMVOpnryt8oUuxSi01mIztfo3fHMx+EZ5Lwqr0b9aek3kI6BJxZ+WqYg2tZavnl
1DCA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0lEIOUP154QWa4C5l9w54XqApmk+e0Im5za9bWmUufCUjhqxjb
9Bl0V+gDDG8uZU7RfgVPKgssbx7lG34hd/nEUhM4OPquTgA=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6SFDf90BuzdXFZ8rip0SOUEXgH6Vnt4yqeC5i0zKm3oD9bnrIaOs9ar3wZXdrwQ4PF+I02cTq4iSbh/x5HSAg=
X-Received: by 2002:ab0:76d1:0:b0:407:702d:7b67 with SMTP id
w17-20020ab076d1000000b00407702d7b67mr3585281uaq.6.1666597525733; Mon, 24 Oct
2022 00:45:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
<CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>
<Y1D3OkdsCq2pLduG@erisian.com.au>
<CABZBVTBupMcBbOUtLbMaEmAiWGsMwisNW+k+bTUJGsUad2=ZZg@mail.gmail.com>
<Y1Gocf216O+yKqqS@erisian.com.au> <Y1HH+zOBHubYsiHR@petertodd.org>
<CABZBVTATQn8C5JRqu=rnRoCRUpUWSNbCxPEgPWvL4Xhq0Ahjqw@mail.gmail.com>
<Y1L0GrFWU3SnG7xN@petertodd.org>
In-Reply-To: <Y1L0GrFWU3SnG7xN@petertodd.org>
From: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 09:45:13 +0200
Message-ID: <CABZBVTAjZnqyn-x8rH3-FMk4GmbL2K4bGL5ZKtrqOxoPP_68=w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000815a2005ebc2f985"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:26:46 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
danger
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:45:29 -0000
--000000000000815a2005ebc2f985
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
There are many countermeasures that can be done, we've only implemented a
subset of them as more haven't been needed.
Mainly we wait some time to make sure any conflicting transaction has time
to propagate on the network. We have well connected nodes with basic
redundancy.
When they are available we sometimes use external block explorers for
certain nice-to-have enhancements, but it's absolutely not required for
zeroconf as they are frequently down.
I can of course only speak to our custom-built setup, presumably everyone
who accepts payments with bitcoin uses something similar. Regardless, let's
maybe not go as far as to say that anyone who accepts payments with bitcoin
is attacking bitcoin ;)
On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 21:33, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 11:34:17AM +0200, Sergej Kotliar wrote:
> > This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do what we do.
>
> So how do you detect people sending conflicting transactions?
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
--
Sergej Kotliar
CEO
Twitter: @ziggamon <https://twitter.com/ziggamon>
www.bitrefill.com
Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/bitrefill> | Blog
<https://www.bitrefill.com/blog/> | Angellist <https://angel.co/bitrefill>
--000000000000815a2005ebc2f985
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">There are many countermeasures that can be done, we've=
only implemented a subset of them as more haven't been needed.<div><br=
><div>Mainly we wait some time to make sure any conflicting transaction has=
time to propagate on the network. We have well connected nodes with basic =
redundancy.=C2=A0</div><div>When they are available we sometimes use extern=
al block explorers for certain nice-to-have enhancements, but it's abso=
lutely not required for zeroconf as they are frequently down.</div><div><br=
></div><div>I can of course only speak to our custom-built setup, presumabl=
y everyone who accepts payments with bitcoin uses something similar. Regard=
less, let's maybe not go as far as to say that anyone who accepts payme=
nts with bitcoin is attacking bitcoin ;)</div></div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at =
21:33, Peter Todd <<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org">pete@petertodd.=
org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 11:34:17AM +0200, Sergej Kotliar wrote:<br>
> This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do what we do.<=
br>
<br>
So how do you detect people sending conflicting transactions?<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line=
-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-wei=
ght:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical=
-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Sergej Kotliar</span></p><p dir=3D"lt=
r" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:tra=
nsparent;font-weight:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decorat=
ion:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">CEO</span></p><p dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b sty=
le=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1=
.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:=
700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-ali=
gn:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"border:none;display:inline=
-block;overflow:hidden;width:220px;height:80px"><img src=3D"https://lh4.goo=
gleusercontent.com/wU5i7e8boCd7o3P52cUTKrqeTa7jV2dPEXluijGtPBy0f1F0R2_zIg_z=
OQ2kigkbVbSWqLlVdwuBYgo_txXMKkCWdMfBFRNhsDhFpNv1QrRZsD-gPxDui-4l0tZI1Qcjtef=
CDkNG" width=3D"220" height=3D"80" style=3D"margin-left: 0px; margin-top: 0=
px;"></span></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:=
0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;col=
or:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style=
:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">Twitter: @</span><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/ziggamo=
n" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transpare=
nt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:un=
derline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">ziggamon</span></a><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);backg=
round-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:norm=
al;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=
=A0</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margi=
n-bottom:0pt"><b style=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" st=
yle=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.bitrefill.com/" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span=
style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);backgrou=
nd-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;=
text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">www=
.bitrefill.com</span></a></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margi=
n-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.twitter.com/bitrefill" =
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rg=
b(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">Twitter</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family=
:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:b=
aseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> | </span><a href=3D"https://www.bitrefill.co=
m/blog/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baselin=
e;white-space:pre-wrap">Blog</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-=
family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-a=
lign:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> | </span><a href=3D"https://angel.co/b=
itrefill" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Aria=
l;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseli=
ne;white-space:pre-wrap">Angellist </span></a><br></p></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
--000000000000815a2005ebc2f985--
|