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To: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Formosa --- proposed improvement upon BIP39
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Good day, Keagan and all!

First of all, thank you for your feedback! Yes, I made it so that Formosa =
does accomplish that: BIP39 is a particular case; a degenerate 'theme' in =
which you have sentences of just 11 bits (instead of 33 in a typical Formo=
sa sentence), and they are made up of just one (11 bits) word with no synt=
actic structure. The sublist of possibilities for this one field does not =
impact and is not impacted by any other (because there is no other). There=
fore it is rather a list (without 'sub') and it consists of the original B=
IP39 word list.

In addition to that, we make it so that themes (including BIP39) are conve=
rtible into one another. The conversion is straightforward: just map the w=
ords back into the array of bits that originated it and derive the new see=
d from it using the new theme. This is why I made sure to have sentences h=
ave a number of bits multiple of 11. Moreover, in order to enable forwards=
 and backwards compatibility and facilitate adoption, we set the original =
BIP39 as standard for key derivation. Meaning: in order to derive keys fro=
m a seed, we first convert back to BIP39 and then proceed the KDF step as =
originally specified in BIP39. This way legacy addresses can be kept even =
if a user wants to choose a theme. Finally, as a bonus, one could argue th=
at a hyper customization would allow for a(n additional, dispensable, non-=
critical) layer of obscurity (which, therefore, wouldn't violate Kerckhoff=
's principle). Example: consider, for example, that a one hyper-customized=
 seed could be (just an extra tool) more easily stenographed in human spee=
ch or written text.

I hope this answers your objections concerning loss of standardization. Th=
ank you for bringing about the issue of coercion resistance! Here is my re=
sponse to that: a user willing to avoid the additional vulnerability to co=
ercion that an effective brain wallet would ensue could just not put up th=
e effort to memorize the seed for long term, and just take advantage of th=
e easier transcription and checking (ie: short-term memorization). Right n=
ow I could anticipate a response in the lines of "Such a format might as w=
ell be so much easier to long-term memorize that a user either ends up doi=
ng that accidentally, and/or the denial of that becomes less plausible.". =
If that is the objection, well, thank you, and, however self-serving it is=
 my saying it, I tend to agree that that would,=C2=A0in fact,=C2=A0be the =
case. My response to it is that:

1.  knowledge-based authentication, whether or not for Bitcoin, still have=
 some properties that possession-based authentication doesn't. Whatever ma=
ster password you memorize, in whatever context, you'd better have an effi=
cient format, with uniformly high entropy density (and even possibly check=
sum), and not having to resort to a silly meme about a staple, a battery a=
nd a horse.
2.  Mitigating the shortcomings of KBA can arguably be done better with 2F=
A, instead of PBA. Having a superior format just as beneficial as before.
3.  Once again, thank you for bringing up coercion resistance! I'd like to=
 point out to an elephant in the room: To this day, and to the best of my =
knowledge there is no scheme, protocol or ceremony that simultaneously ach=
ieves self-custody and coercion resistance with=C2=A0non-obscurity. IMHO t=
his is an critical problem for various reasons and I'll be making a thread=
 about it shortly.


Thank you again for your inputs and be my guest to further debate your poi=
nts! I hope this could have been of help!

Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 11:24 PM, Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclellan=
d@gmail.com> wrote:


> Good day Yuri,
> =


> This is a very cool idea. After reviewing the repository it seems that t=
here lacks a BIP style specification for this, so it is possible that some=
 of my takeaways may not be correct but I figured I'd comment with some ob=
servations anyway. Feel free to correct me where I've made a mistake.
> I think to make an idea like this work it would be necessary for it to "=
extend" BIP39 rather than "replace" it. What I mean by this is that BIP39 =
is heavily entrenched in the ecosystem and so in order for you to sidestep=
 the need to get everyone in the ecosystem to adopt a new standard, you'd =
want this process to be able to output a standard BIP39 seed sequence. Thi=
s becomes even more important when you allow these different "themes" that=
 are mentioned later in the document. The notion of themes practically pre=
cludes the standardization of the technique since customization really is =
the antithesis of standardization.
> =


> The largest value proposition of these schemes is that it allows signifi=
cant wallet interoperability. This is achieved if process for translating =
these phrases to the underlying wallet seed is deterministic. Themes may p=
rove to make this harder to solve. I also do not believe that themes meani=
ngfully increase the ability to remember the phrase: the fact that the phr=
ase has a valid semantic at all is a massive step up from an undifferentia=
ted sequence of words that is the current state of BIP39. The benefits aff=
orded by the themes here are little by comparison.
> =


> Overall, I think exploring this idea further is a good idea. However, th=
ere may be concerns about whether the increased memorability is a good thi=
ng. It would certainly make $5 wrench attacks more viable, not less. I can=
't help but ask myself the question whether more Bitcoin is lost because o=
f seed phrases not being memorized, or because of social engineering exerc=
ises used to scrape these phrases from the brains of users. I have a hunch=
 that loss is a larger problem than theft, but it is a very real possibili=
ty that a wide deployment of this type of tech could change that.
> =


> Stay Inspired,
> Keags
> =


> On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 6:05=E2=80=AFAM Yuri S VB via bitcoin-dev <bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> =


> > Dear colleagues,
> > The following is a password format that improves upon BIP39 by allowin=
g meaningful, themed sentences with a regular grammatical structure instea=
d of semantically disconnected words, while keeping the same entropy/check=
sum and total bits/non-repeating leading digits ratios (of 32/1 and 11/4 r=
espectively).
> > =


> > https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/formosa
> > =


> > Anecdotal experiments suggest that less than one hour of moderate conc=
entration is enough for long term memorization of 128 + 4 bits (equivalent=
 to the 12 words standard of BIP39) if a theme of interest is employed.
> > =


> > I hereby offer it to your scrutiny as a Bitcoin Improvement Proposal. =
Please don't hesitate to ask whatever issue about the project there might =
be.
> > =


> > Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB.
> > =


> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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