1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
|
Return-Path: <christophera@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA1FC002B
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:18:47 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AB14091B
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:18:47 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 20AB14091B
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lifewithalacrity-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
header.i=@lifewithalacrity-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=20210112 header.b=PCinWrmN
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id iE57wjnD1XSI
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:18:46 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org A098640914
Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com
[IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133])
by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A098640914
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:18:45 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id bp15so12691038lfb.13
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 04 Feb 2023 14:18:45 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=lifewithalacrity-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=qOtfEaQJftD/Ip/45Dja/C4o4w001i15RvxZkYNrboY=;
b=PCinWrmNtepOkiZsHg+BlJZrbZHGiAe5eh0OHgLnDJdqDUaw5OJ6CJd/DTv2Zmu8ey
vhOwWtOGvcFyBYUrdkUCrQ/wP3q1IQJHqcvB5Zk+myAH5DAHpxy226L3wdI059Ze87a+
d0insEEYXQf7ZzGHJ99JmqBV9+Zw0/dVSgo2fi/eMMAUkhVANJXiC5dL9HMuCxXhxJ84
WQ5xnXk7llpwY2xJd7Ecjn9AOwCYwbqRaK7eH6mQjUJmmZao7GPAWYzAwRgxx/7TVSOl
2pUmauvtjcWSHa3YLD5TM6LMBbx4IDL7q39taW098gwazet6TFoh+cCc16GMTXG1gq4j
GNag==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=qOtfEaQJftD/Ip/45Dja/C4o4w001i15RvxZkYNrboY=;
b=Q2bH7cSj933Y1ZmgNiYp9XaV4bdtbLmAlc8OH7hjQBu+bPIVJBdR7PIxlCDytAtQin
jhyLRVwlptjdBZ8kQEicgxEK1/g3hvegeV1uS18KZe4BJ/+od62F/8SFb05d7Azh1LVu
VN+ZZw2LuCXJ5nwDKBF+RfvOM2m836pb3Uts9uWkkIi92+fZRvufGhccGuuxX255O+Vj
LXdxcqpzerNBjgexvGZdt+1oszlgVX5kTbz+zWT06t5knZvzI1vDJnxdABcUb/zmccse
4+asIWW5Rvgh+zvR/4ZU411F+vrVsIqtJ5W1vgAhm/LEdA9XvIwmLQvdheWD5deqNdbd
aZdw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXebz4k878coKt9eJ8XWeLhs6ux77xuYSBTkAAlL1uIlJ8PlSxW
u6y/hc9SIEtF5nkNSpYTse+cREKdFso9dXJaP/A=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/ZihjJ2+r485A87rWuKzZ4HUicO89VXwj4hjWQwzvv3TPNwBaC8kv+XrHsxpZRKqpBXp6/KNWWsNrHI9mV6QY=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5490:0:b0:4d7:856:d4b6 with SMTP id
t16-20020ac25490000000b004d70856d4b6mr2509863lfk.210.1675549123184; Sat, 04
Feb 2023 14:18:43 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CACrqygAMsO1giYuxm=DZUqfeRjEqGM7msmEnZ-AHws3oA2=aqw@mail.gmail.com>
<ca8622cb-445e-4258-bbac-b3ee1ce95f4c@protonmail.com>
<57f780b1-f262-9394-036c-70084320e9cf@peersm.com>
<CACrqygCNf3Gv8+VjhyqS4GTb3Epo8qXEKGtQB6sqyR6ib44-fA@mail.gmail.com>
<CABE6yHtM2Dqc63_eURSr7dMirJti5sYnqvHj7vQ_Ab9FC_d04g@mail.gmail.com>
<3d00aacb-585d-f875-784d-34352860d725@peersm.com>
<CACrqygB_FbsRGWYPSUEFTnP15y94Hmo4JtAuv6bH1D3YtbAw9Q@mail.gmail.com>
<b292d887-cbd5-165c-de01-793df2b5e8f3@peersm.com>
In-Reply-To: <b292d887-cbd5-165c-de01-793df2b5e8f3@peersm.com>
From: Christopher Allen <ChristopherA@lifewithalacrity.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 14:18:06 -0800
Message-ID: <CACrqygAv842ucN7PLYMENXFiSwAZJy2Y+FziJXrWjyCcOXmL3g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Aymeric Vitte <aymeric@peersm.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a8bcd05f3e72e64"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:19:32 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Debate: 64 bytes in OP_RETURN VS taproot OP_FALSE
OP_IF OP_PUSH
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:18:47 -0000
--0000000000004a8bcd05f3e72e64
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 12:55 PM Aymeric Vitte <aymeric@peersm.com> wrote:
> Thanks Christopher, then I understand the process:
>
> - I must issue a PR where I switch 80 to another number, even if I am not
> a C/C++ expert it looks easy
>
Yes, this would be an easy PR, at least to start. I suspect that
longer-term, you'd need to draft some assistance to make it turn on/off
from when the bitcoin daemon is initialized. But that could wait until the
conversation has progressed some.
The harder part will be writing the initial comment, where you should
carefully explain the rationale, link to some existing conversations, try
to point out in advance the obvious objections and rationale despite them,
and explain your particular choice of number =E2=80=94 520 because that is =
a
similar limit in taproot? Some multiple of hash+signature+metadata to
satisfy others (that still might not be satisfied by any choice).
> - I must stay calm and answer all outstanding concerns about this trivia=
l
> change
>
> - Since I am not as clever as the bitcoin devs I must be ready to revise
> my PR at any time
>
> - This could lead for the change to be from 80B to 82.xB where x comes
> from a non understandable crypto formula
>
> - I must evangelize the change worldwide
>
> - Once accepted, I must collude (pay) with the nodes/miners so they updat=
e
> at a subtile block height decided by the community
>
That is true for forks, but I don't think this is a fork. It might require
resolving some mempool issues (for instance for mining pools). But for it
to become non-optional, you'll need to demonstrate that miners and full
nodes have turned it on. Thus that is more a conversation than "collusion
(pay)".
> And then I must pray that the PR does not survive myself
>
> Looks like a pretty straight forward process.
>
I've seen worse. I co-authored TLS 1.0 (6 years) and DID 1.0 (5 years).
> I am on this list since quite some time, so, seriously, this change is
> needed, or, as I said before, deviant behaviours will happen, because the
> "witness trick" or others do not work at all, and are clearly similar to
> ethereum messy stuff
>
You have at least Concept ACK from me! ;-)
-- Christopher Allen
--0000000000004a8bcd05f3e72e64
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 12:55 PM Aymer=
ic Vitte <<a href=3D"mailto:aymeric@peersm.com">aymeric@peersm.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>Thanks Christopher, then I understand the process:</p>
<p>- I must issue a PR where I switch 80 to another number, even if
I am not a C/C++ expert it looks easy</p></div></blockquote><div>Yes,=
this would be an easy PR,=C2=A0at least to start. I suspect that longer-te=
rm, you'd need to draft some assistance to make it turn on/off from whe=
n the bitcoin daemon is initialized. But that could wait until the conversa=
tion has progressed some.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The harder part will=
be writing the initial comment, where you should carefully explain the rat=
ionale, link to some existing conversations, try to point out in advance th=
e obvious objections and rationale despite them, and explain your particula=
r choice of number =E2=80=94 520 because that is a similar limit in taproot=
? Some multiple of hash+signature+metadata to satisfy others (that still mi=
ght not be satisfied by any choice).</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:=
solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"=
#FFFFFF">
<p>- I=C2=A0 must stay calm and answer all outstanding concerns about
this trivial change</p>
<p>- Since I am not as clever as the bitcoin devs I must be ready to
revise my PR at any time</p>
<p>- This could lead for the change to be from 80B to 82.xB where x
comes from a non understandable crypto formula<br>
</p>
<p>- I must evangelize the change worldwide</p>
<p>- Once accepted, I must collude (pay) with the nodes/miners so
they update at a subtile block height decided by the community<br></p=
></div></blockquote><div>That is true for forks, but I don't think this=
is a fork. It might require resolving some mempool issues (for instance fo=
r mining pools). But for it to become non-optional, you'll need to demo=
nstrate that miners and full nodes have turned it on. Thus that is more a c=
onversation than "collusion (pay)".</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-le=
ft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bg=
color=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>
</p>
<p>And then I must pray that the PR does not survive myself</p>
<p>Looks like a pretty straight forward process.<br></p></div></blockqu=
ote><div>I've seen worse. I co-authored TLS 1.0 (6 years) and DID 1.0 (=
5 years).<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>
</p>
<p>I am on this list since quite some time, so, seriously, this
change is needed, or, as I said before, deviant behaviours will
happen, because the "witness trick" or others do not work a=
t all,
and are clearly similar to ethereum messy stuff</p></div></blockquote=
><div>You have at least Concept ACK from me! ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-=
- Christopher Allen=C2=A0</div></div></div>
--0000000000004a8bcd05f3e72e64--
|
