1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
|
Return-Path: <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 132EB728
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:25 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com
[209.85.192.181])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798A3B0
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:24 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by pdbnt7 with SMTP id nt7so5080074pdb.0
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
:message-id:references:to;
bh=W+xZvfVdz5RMCbJ77nngaOWVWma7fBOiGPgJkTseeIc=;
b=yITSdjFQeuogX3yelFFI0W0wj8MeOUqvzcb3ipya6vZmmFXhK8i5e0DUK7Ct00TdSF
MbklbIy3p1enxdZ9YLWBrU2QpnbgBadzNUboJKy9sPVLoWQxzbUTGy1NJeRI5TmlLJrs
26TfO0BCrnxObz1VS6PPMJGN+jKb07gKlc22QMlWXuNoCsO1Xdd5Sa0XVciKZDxx1cL+
6Wqx00hNVwgJbFQ/OUatAPI77Ej8JPsYJ+jidxCXPEWLL850qmmQBUCGlqXD6HbiUUaW
WfaMmmGIWDh+MUV+Q1RM6VbJqQSt7senFQJNZ4KD333YKSooQDtSpsXNlHju218n/yDK
4LRQ==
X-Received: by 10.66.159.68 with SMTP id xa4mr25553856pab.105.1437701844035;
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.107] (cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com.
[76.167.237.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
vr2sm11261314pab.26.2015.07.23.18.37.21
(version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\))
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
boundary="Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42";
protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6
From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <0E15E07E-E21C-4541-869A-3C34CBA35774@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:20 -0700
Message-Id: <C50E24C5-B108-4DD1-851C-BC3391CC7E58@gmail.com>
References: <CAPg+sBgs-ouEMu=LOVCmOyCGwfM1Ygxooz0shyvAuHDGGZYfJw@mail.gmail.com>
<CABm2gDq3JyZx0QCRDbcNSLSOBKdpi4h_7VN1XL8N42U38+eBAA@mail.gmail.com>
<55B113AF.40500@thinlink.com>
<CABsx9T1MTc-GmuQyFN1vaFK=CDWV_L214Pi9nR6jLMouQQD0fw@mail.gmail.com>
<C5A70F53-4779-457A-A06A-686877706F89@gmail.com>
<CADL_X_exckh5T2BfzPEp26fPR3TD69QarwroDEdS_9wtnKbf+g@mail.gmail.com>
<6F436293-9E2B-461C-B105-FC4CF9EBFC69@gmail.com>
<CADL_X_fs3-Zj-9nHu5HXCS=kNFUTJkrUR_8SL+d+M4ziwB66Jw@mail.gmail.com>
<CABm2gDqFe+_g5Mk=tXCD94x74pu6SiL+XHhMM-T3bBw78m3Mow@mail.gmail.com>
<D161F6BB-BFB1-4B9F-B024-D60A170F393C@gmail.com>
<CALqmWPC8PdSPS3chhnjBaTixrvvg0VrEaXzd3OvbXifkMs0DUw@mail.gmail.com>
<42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmai> <l.com@mac.com>
<D472C05D-7164-4ED1-B571-94415AD8E60F@gmail.com>
<346D4CE0-E00D-4ABB-B131-EFA1416CB20C@me.com>
<29363BE6-72A7-4D06-A974-C52BA12FD8BD@gmail.com>
<55FFBC8F-A3C9-4109-89C7-AC359FBBD478@me.com>
<4734381C-2000-4D9B-9099-DDE3D38D64A3@me.com>
<DEF9C610-2FBC-40C1-9AFA-9E91903C7F96@petertodd.org>
<DFA3CCE4-52F7-4D63-8982-2EB133AB6EAA@me.com>
<B8F9DE4B-A8AA-490D-991B-11C28B2AA527@gmail.com>
<D7EE14EC-B36D-43F2-8CEC-B63443FBBCA8@me.com>
<0E15E07E-E21C-4541-869A-3C34CBA35774@gmail.com>
To: Jean-Paul Kogelman <jeanpaulkogelman@me.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098)
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: Jean-Paul Kogelman via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:25 -0000
--Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
I think it=E2=80=99s pretty clear by now that the assumption that all =
nodes have pretty similar computational resources leads to very =
misplaced incentives. Ultimately, cryptocurrencies will allow direct =
outsourcing of computation, making it possible to distribute =
computational tasks in an economically sensible way.
Wallets should be assumed to have low computational resources and =
intermittent Internet connections for the foreseeable future if we ever =
intend for this to be a practical payment system, methinks.
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:28 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I suppose you can use a timelocked output that is spendable by anyone =
you could go somewhat in this direction=E2=80=A6the thing is it still =
means the wallet must make fee estimations rather than being able to get =
a quick quote.
>=20
>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:25 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman =
<jeanpaulkogelman@me.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I think implicit QoS is far simpler to implement, requires less =
parties and is closer to what Bitcoin started out as: a peer-to-peer =
digital cash system, not a peer-to-let-me-handle-that-for-you-to-peer =
system.
>>=20
>> jp
>>=20
>>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> By using third parties separate from individual miners that do =
bidding on your behalf you get a mechanism that allows QoS guarantees =
and shifting the complexity and risk from the wallet with little =
computational resources to a service with abundance of them. Using =
timelocked contracts it=E2=80=99s possible to enforce the guarantees.
>>>=20
>>> Negotiating directly with miners via smart contracts seems difficult =
at best.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Doesn't matter.
>>>>=20
>>>> It's not going to be perfect given the block time variance among =
other factors but it's far more workable than guessing whether or not =
your transaction is going to end up in a block at all.
>>>>=20
>>>> jp
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:53 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA256
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 23 July 2015 20:49:20 GMT-04:00, Jean-Paul Kogelman via =
bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> And it's obvious how a size cap would interfere with such a QoS =
scheme.
>>>>>> Miners wouldn't be able to deliver the below guarantees if they =
have to
>>>>>> start excluding transactions.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As mining is a random, poisson process, obviously giving =
guarantees without a majority of hashing power isn't possible.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>>>=20
>>>>> iQE9BAEBCAAnIBxQZXRlciBUb2RkIDxwZXRlQHBldGVydG9kZC5vcmc+BQJVsYyK
>>>>> AAoJEMCF8hzn9Lnc47AH/28WlecQLb37CiJpcvXO9tC4zqYEodurtB9nBHTSJrug
>>>>> VIEXZW53pSTdd3vv2qpGIlHxuYP8QmDSATztwQLuN6XWEszz7TO8MXBfLxKqZyGu
>>>>> i83WqSGjMAfwqjl0xR1G7PJgt4+E+0vaAFZc98vLCgZnedbiXRVtTGjhofG1jjTc
>>>>> DFMwMZHP0eqWTwtWwqUvnA7PTFHxdqoJruY/t1KceN+JDbBCJWMxBDswU64FXcVH
>>>>> 0ecsk9nhLMyylBX/2v4HjCXyayocH8jQ+FpLSP0xxERyS+f1npFX9cxFMq24uXqn
>>>>> PcnZfLfaSJ6gMbmhbYG5wYDKN3u732j7dLzSJnMW6jk=3D
>>>>> =3DLY1+
>>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVsZbQAAoJEJNAI64YFENU8lMQAJ4AKA+4Abe7T4uXRrmnOAVX
Cr1c3e6haMJBCJfrsdiVYhoXceZaY3rf4Waf4mQ46R+ugtZjoZMVDH6AerOtJ5XF
Xw+2HryIe71JgyUAOAL8yLuCMPP2SgBPI6/XfUfiB17q70KAxRqr1K4IoZ3RDAFF
85G+w4IJYjTrG+F2+wvx98PyqHBcgSymSzDRRDcOTY+Uf6zp9IbFTy4eeo03zZHW
UlfIP4w4VEQ3og6WWwFcSaSD5lW8L8SJCWPrEG2F2EMmNJHUcRQ1zlVG7WEZiyXF
s0qKWoNW8LFunpTRun9l4Nr0Law3VIjsmeDhs+cD4kV5FVKlXoC75u4mR4sv+Zz2
ItfwRQ9Nr/g0zmM3pETp3Y53e7cMRv956mjlR0MV6OflC6blg4HD1t0xYDTD1wVX
bk5mfYp+ShZDCAaQmL5Btk41UkT+R86twHg1hAmiZ33IDpRBBTfqDaKqB7xGxSLF
KqgI3N+aA9QFjGvq1zhJmqfd8pq2iJq9sZri+5pmKoag0mHDoC6o2xBwxowRvYpn
Ld8YvnYRh8s8hJgKYJvvrZyp64lMwA5C16zxpkjQeAhoRnRjsiDCLb6AKgnQZjRu
chhMg9PCigbWLog8t0DC2Bjb1TBVo4UzBtb68ugwpqNby3J9YLtnJLWNc9hBuz2t
RXQVbWSPqKRcrOIeiSmI
=CI0A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42--
|
