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From: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 11:34:17 +0200
Message-ID: <CABZBVTATQn8C5JRqu=rnRoCRUpUWSNbCxPEgPWvL4Xhq0Ahjqw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
danger
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This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do what we do.
On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 00:13, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this
> > > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good
> > > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not
> something
> > > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all?
> > > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will
> have to
> > > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC
> to a
> > > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal
> payment
> > > processor type business.
> >
> > So, what I'm hearing is:
> >
> > * lightning works great, but is still pretty small
> > * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF
>
> It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf works great"
> for
> them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure
> propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small
> number
> of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using
> up
> inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guarantee"
> services, and the end result is not good.
>
> It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and no
> new
> companies start.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
--
Sergej Kotliar
CEO
Twitter: @ziggamon <https://twitter.com/ziggamon>
www.bitrefill.com
Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/bitrefill> | Blog
<https://www.bitrefill.com/blog/> | Angellist <https://angel.co/bitrefill>
--000000000000fbb39105eb882576
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do =
what we do.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 00:13, Peter Todd <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:pete@petertodd.org">pete@petertodd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41=
AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-d=
ev wrote:<br>
> > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store =
via this<br>
> > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single walle=
t with a good<br>
> > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not=
something<br>
> > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at =
all?<br>
> > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we wi=
ll have to<br>
> > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in=
BTC to a<br>
> > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your no=
rmal payment<br>
> > processor type business.<br>
> <br>
> So, what I'm hearing is:<br>
> <br>
>=C2=A0 * lightning works great, but is still pretty small<br>
>=C2=A0 * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF<br>
<br>
It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf work=
s great" for<br>
them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure=
<br>
propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small =
number<br>
of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using =
up<br>
inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guara=
ntee"<br>
services, and the end result is not good.<br>
<br>
It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and=
no new<br>
companies start.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line=
-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-wei=
ght:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical=
-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Sergej Kotliar</span></p><p dir=3D"lt=
r" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:tra=
nsparent;font-weight:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decorat=
ion:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">CEO</span></p><p dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b sty=
le=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1=
.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:=
700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-ali=
gn:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"border:none;display:inline=
-block;overflow:hidden;width:220px;height:80px"><img src=3D"https://lh4.goo=
gleusercontent.com/wU5i7e8boCd7o3P52cUTKrqeTa7jV2dPEXluijGtPBy0f1F0R2_zIg_z=
OQ2kigkbVbSWqLlVdwuBYgo_txXMKkCWdMfBFRNhsDhFpNv1QrRZsD-gPxDui-4l0tZI1Qcjtef=
CDkNG" width=3D"220" height=3D"80" style=3D"margin-left: 0px; margin-top: 0=
px;"></span></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:=
0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;col=
or:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style=
:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">Twitter: @</span><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/ziggamo=
n" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz=
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