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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
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Btw, I should clarify my email: I'm a staunch supporter of moving to
1e-6 BTC as the default unit for wallet applications, not necessarily
any particular name. I would be fine with "bits" as I think this
context is sufficiently different that it won't be confused by regular
consumers. But it wouldn't be my first choice. I don't know what my
first choice would be.
While writing this email, I asked my wife (who's been tired of hearing
about Bitcoin for two years), what she thinks of "bits", "microbes",
"micros". She said she is fine with any of them. Apparently microbes
reminders her of biology, not "germs". But she's also well-educated, so
she fine with milli, micro, kilo, etc... and apparently biology...
Whatever we call it. I'm happy to support it as long as it's 1e-6.
On 04/20/2014 12:23 PM, Erik Garrison wrote:
>
> The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp of orders
> of magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill. People
> are very likely to learn what mBTC and µBTC are simply because they
> risk their money if they do not. This is not a bad thing and I think
> stands only to help people who learn about these monikers for orders
> of magnitude this way.
>
> Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to develop
> in due course. Promoting an already-overloaded term that could just
> as easily be applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of value
> in any currency seems problematic.
>
> I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do
> anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going
> to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it
> into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and
> settings/options). I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though
> -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded.
> Though, I think we could get away with it.
>
> (Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin)
> when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is
> actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just
> doesn't instill the right visuals...)
>
> We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of course,
> there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require
> some work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change the
> default right away. I'd /prefer/ we get some commitments from some
> other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for it. I'm
> happy to lead that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one
> in the world doing it.
>
> -Alan
>
>
>
> On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> Here is an earlier reference to bits:
>>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html
>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html>
>>
>> I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :
>>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html
>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html>
>>
>> and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
>> pushing for XBT being 1 bit
>>
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html
>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tamas Blummer
>> http://bitsofproof.com
>>
>> On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com
>> <mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
>>> Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
>>> to just one client.
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer
>>> <tamas@bitsofproof.com <mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com>> wrote:
>>>> People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem
>>>> dealing with
>>>> magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a
>>>> problem
>>>> with them.
>>>> They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they
>>>> would not
>>>> need to care of finance's or people's current customs.
>>>>
>>>> The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as
>>>> people
>>>> already use wallets other than the core.
>>>>
>>>> Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.
>>>>
>>>> BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support
>>>> and Jeff
>>>> Garzik's.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Tamas Blummer
>>>> http://bitsofproof.com
>>>>
>>>> On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <rob.golding@astutium.com>
>>>> <mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
>>>> are using is the correct one,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary,
>>>> and there
>>>> are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel
>>>> they need
>>>> to use such things.
>>>>
>>>> people WILL send 1000x more or less than
>>>> intended if we go down this road,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2
>>>> and 3
>>>> dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of
>>>> thousands - Not
>>>> once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended
>>>> - oh,
>>>> they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.
>>>>
>>>> I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
>>>> Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
>>>> equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is,
>>>> they can
>>>> just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>>>> and their
>>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>>>> and their
>>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Btw, I should clarify my email: I'm a staunch supporter of moving to
1e-6 BTC as the default unit for wallet applications, not
necessarily any particular name. I would be fine with "bits" as I
think this context is sufficiently different that it won't be
confused by regular consumers. But it wouldn't be my first choice.
I don't know what my first choice would be.<br>
<br>
While writing this email, I asked my wife (who's been tired of
hearing about Bitcoin for two years), what she thinks of "bits",
"microbes", "micros". She said she is fine with any of them.
Apparently microbes reminders her of biology, not "germs". But
she's also well-educated, so she fine with milli, micro, kilo,
etc... and apparently biology...<br>
<br>
Whatever we call it. I'm happy to support it as long as it's 1e-6.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/20/2014 12:23 PM, Erik Garrison
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALykB6n0PFwRU1gvP+KXdN2ONkOfWZPwhmP-A1fmrAJ_M3iB6A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a
solid grasp of orders of magnitude could be considered a basic
mathematical skill. People are very likely to learn what mBTC
and µBTC are simply because they risk their money if they do
not. This is not a bad thing and I think stands only to help
people who learn about these monikers for orders of magnitude
this way.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is
sure to develop in due course. Promoting an already-overloaded
term that could just as easily be applied colloquially to refer
to a small amount of value in any currency seems problematic.</p>
<div class="gmail_quot<blockquote class=" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I've been a staunch
supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do anything I
can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to
promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to
integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate
explanations and settings/options). I'm not so convinced
about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do also
think that word is too overloaded. Though, I think we could
get away with it. <br>
<br>
(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in <b>microb</b>itcoin)
when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue
and is actually a good combination of brevity and
self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill the right
visuals...)<br>
<br>
We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of
course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected,
which will require some work. We want to put it in but not
necessarily change the default right away. I'd <i>prefer</i>
we get some commitments from some other wallet developers, so
we can make a unified push for it. I'm happy to lead that and
make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world
doing it.<br>
<br>
-Alan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Here is an earlier reference to bits:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html"
target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit
equals to bits :</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html"
target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a
poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1 bit</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html"
target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Regards,</span><br
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Tamas
Blummer</span><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:start;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><br
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://bitsofproof.com"
target="_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a></span> </span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail.com" target="_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I told him specifically to bring
it here (on a pull request for<br>
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such
convention changes<br>
to just one client.<br>
<br>
I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits"
proposal here before.<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" target="_blank">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">People on this list are mostly
engineers who have no problem dealing with<br>
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people
who have a problem<br>
with them.<br>
They also tend to think, that because they invented
money 2.0 they would not<br>
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.<br>
<br>
The importance of their decisions in these questions
will fade as people<br>
already use wallets other than the core.<br>
<br>
Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the
wallet developer.<br>
<br>
BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you
have my support and Jeff<br>
Garzik's.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Tamas Blummer<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bitsofproof.com" target="_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a><br>
<br>
On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com"
target="_blank"><rob.golding@astutium.com></a>
wrote:<br>
<br>
The average person is not going to be confident that
the prefix they<br>
are using is the correct one,<br>
<br>
<br>
The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely
unnecessary, and there<br>
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for
those that feel they need<br>
to use such things.<br>
<br>
people WILL send 1000x more or less than<br>
intended if we go down this road,<br>
<br>
<br>
Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with
currencies with 0, 2 and 3<br>
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to
tens of thousands - Not<br>
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less
than intended - oh,<br>
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never
*unintended*.<br>
<br>
I propose that users are offered a preference to
denominate the<br>
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one
bitcoin (BTC)<br>
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100
satoshis.<br>
<br>
<br>
I propose that for people unable to understand what a
bitcoin is, they can<br>
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.<br>
<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
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