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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:08:06 +0000
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To: Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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What is ST? If it may be a reason to oppose CTV, why not talk about it more
explicitly so that others can understand the criticisms?
It seems that criticism isn't really that welcomed and is just explained
away.
Perhaps it is just my subjective perception.
Sometimes it feels we're going from "don't trust, verify" to "just trust
jeremy rubin", i hope this is really just my subjective perception. Because
I think it would be really bad that we started to blindly trust people like
that, and specially jeremy.


On Wed, Mar 9, 2022, 00:37 Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Logs here: https://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log
>
> Notes:
>
> 1) Sapio Updates
>
> Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now.
> See logs for how to help.
> Rust-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g.
> https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305
> Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really cool, if
> someone wants a challenge.
>
> 2) Transaction Sponsors
>
> What sponsors are vs. RBF/CPFP.
> Why there's not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a
> BIP+impl in
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html,
> should only get a number if it seems like people agree).
>
> 3) James' Vaults Post
>
> James' vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV vaults (Kanzure's
> / Jeremy's), where the number of steps = 1.
> Actually ends up being a very good design for many custody purposes, might
> be a good "80% of the benefit 20% of the work" type of thing.
> People maybe want different things out of vaults... how customizable must
> it be?
>
> 4) Mailing list be poppin'
>
> Zmn shared a prepared remark which spurred a nice conversation.
> General sentiment that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power,
> with great power comes great responsibility...
> Maybe we shouldn't care though -- don't send to scripts you don't like?
> Math is scary -- you can do all sorts of bizarre stuff with more power
> (e.g., what if you made an EVM inside a bitcoin output).
> Things like OP_EVICT should be bounded by design.
> Problem X: Infrastructure issue for all more flexible covenants:
>    1) generate a transition function you would like
>    2) compile it into a script covenant
>    3) request the transition/txn you want to have happen
>     4) produce a satisifaction of the script covenant for that transaction
>    5) prove the transition function *is* what you wanted/secure
> Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good idea.
> You can prototype covenants with federations in Sapio pretty easily...
> more people should try this!
>
> 5) General discuss
> People suck at naming things... give things more unique names for
> protocols!
> Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub Coin Machine
> Some discussion on forking, if theres any kind of consensus forming,
> doing things like
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html
> How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced errors of not making an
> activating client available precluding being able to activate
> luke-jr: never ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV
> jamesob: <javascript> OP_DOTHETHING
>
> best,
>
> Jeremy
>
> --
> @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--000000000000f7c0d105d9c71847
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<div dir=3D"auto">What is ST? If it may be a reason to oppose CTV, why not =
talk about it more explicitly so that others can understand the criticisms?=
<div dir=3D"auto">It seems that criticism isn&#39;t really that welcomed an=
d is just explained away.</div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps it is just my subj=
ective perception.</div><div dir=3D"auto">Sometimes it feels we&#39;re goin=
g from &quot;don&#39;t trust, verify&quot; to &quot;just trust jeremy rubin=
&quot;, i hope this is really just my subjective perception. Because I thin=
k it would be really bad that we started to blindly trust people like that,=
 and specially jeremy.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 9, 2022=
, 00:37 Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
;color:#000000">Logs here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-revie=
w/2022-03-08.log" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://gnusha.org/c=
tv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Notes:</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:=
#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">1) Sapio Updates</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=
Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0=
00000">See logs for how to help.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Rust=
-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g.=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://git=
hub.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305" dir=3D"auto" rel=3D"noopener=
 noreferrer" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;text-decoration:none;font-family:-=
apple-system,system-ui,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Roboto,Ubuntu,Cantarell,&quot;N=
oto Sans&quot;,sans-serif,BlinkMacSystemFont,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Ari=
al;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap" target=3D"_blank">https://github.co=
m/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0=
00000">Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really cool, if=
 someone wants a challenge.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small;color:#000000">2) Transaction Sponsors</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">What spon=
sors are vs. RBF/CPFP.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Why there&#39;=
s not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a BIP+impl in=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-Sept=
ember/018168.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://lists.linux=
foundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html</a>, should=
 only get a number if it seems like people agree).</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;c=
olor:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">3) James&#39; Vaul=
ts Post</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;c=
olor:#000000">James&#39; vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV v=
aults (Kanzure&#39;s / Jeremy&#39;s), where the number of steps =3D 1.</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small;color:#000000">Actually ends up being a very good design=
 for many custody purposes, might be a good &quot;80% of the benefit 20% of=
 the work&quot; type of thing.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">People=
 maybe want different things out of vaults... how=C2=A0customizable must it=
 be?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;colo=
r:#000000">4) Mailing list be poppin&#39;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000=
000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Zmn shared a prepared remar=
k which spurred a nice conversation.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=
General sentiment that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power, =
with great power comes great responsibility...</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color=
:#000000">Maybe we shouldn&#39;t care though -- don&#39;t send to scripts y=
ou don&#39;t like?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Math is scary -- y=
ou can do all sorts of bizarre stuff with more power (e.g., what if you mad=
e an EVM inside a bitcoin output).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">T=
hings like OP_EVICT should be bounded by design.</div><span class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)">Problem X: Infrastructure </span>issue <span class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">for all more flexible covenants</span>:<div><span class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>1) generate a transition functi=
on you would like</div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0</span>2) compile it into a script covenant</div><div><span class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>3) request the transition<span c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">/txn</span> you want <span class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">to have happen</span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0=
,0,0)">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span>4) produce a satisifaction of the script covena=
nt<span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> for that transaction</span></div><d=
iv><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>5) prove the t=
ransition function *is* what you wanted/secure</div><div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)">Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good =
idea.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">You can prototype covenants =
with federations in Sapio pretty easily... more people should try this!</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb=
(0,0,0)">5) General discuss</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">People=
 suck at naming things... give things more unique names for protocols!</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub=
 Coin Machine</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000" fac=
e=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Some discussion=C2=A0</font>on forking, =
if theres any kind of consensus forming, doing things like <a href=3D"https=
://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipe=
rmail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt">How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced errors of not making an ac=
tivating client available precluding being able to activate<br>luke-jr: nev=
er ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV<br>jamesob: &lt;javascript&gt; O=
P_DOTHETHING</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default">best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default">Jeremy</div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<br><a href=3D"https:=
//twitter.com/JeremyRubin" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">@JeremyRubi=
n</a><br></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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