path: root/44/186a8581b85b09b0d3ffa8b9a4505cf87634cd

Return-Path: <user@petertodd.org>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C06AC002D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2896041977
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 2896041977
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key,
 unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com
 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=nBmnRRtH
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.602
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id sBrX3LG6fduf
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:47 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org CBD95416BA
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com
 [66.111.4.29])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD95416BA
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:46 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46])
 by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67E85C009E;
 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
 by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id
 :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id
 :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=
 fm3; t=1666303997; x=1666390397; bh=qlycyeMq6zvS4m5cyBgkBUoW8k4Z
 PzO4Gr7I85tXxwA=; b=nBmnRRtH0xEfoypa9PE5PWM/dlVVG1rQLS60OQAp1JnQ
 DECcmPXlkObKAHPB+yliRAJESGbQfwCkUjeGepta/no693rUpMDhu7+qR2Ajvqpr
 wEBaIZan/JSbC5Xl/45nWsQ+pvXXY0D1J4yXjeWGN7XrlWrVXd+pUUNGYYLkqR7k
 eCc7eIItDLVX8c1b7Y+Iex7a9lEc2RqJkNB6/MgEZTPtY3HY3kp4UIe10kG/MflF
 K+sZZwhTcLrx/U6qbKJo55J+YRiyXdj4C+ewyeVqVD7merHpHoBqHACXlgRgelIO
 lO2zToBDVXNc/QvOy03UDSmJzUDVwAzpk26eJN4pFw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:_cdRY52yLtIQgcMuphhvbkDzkQaWeKgQyZsbcVEgzbt7b80gdrCs6A>
 <xme:_cdRYwE3DYkJkgzFoDp2TiGQNcOdyNF6gIRQKYdG_5Ra5kuPNhPBjGPra0T8KjKqO
 8pHoCUmoFhyPT8k1cg>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:_cdRY56pV8SN3-mOWTOg7QJ9O5HogeQKsXHCsikHp5SHRjZWBulmCMNnRSu2aht1skbu4xEH2MQnROPQVrymZmCuNdJn>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrfeeljedgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
 fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
 uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne
 cujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgv
 rhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtth
 gvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfej
 tdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii
 gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehushgvrhesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr
 ohhrgh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:_cdRY22YQgKIiih7Ut2rPUFThyGlXfSOOUbfpTlsAT_uYbhTDA2sbA>
 <xmx:_cdRY8GYDBL3o-i8uYGH1F9q19x8awWm0lAY-1_O_1O-gW_Wv_Kxrg>
 <xmx:_cdRY38MbbExAfVI-REM_ayyiPjeTR29Y1aF9wZEXh1InmVUour2EA>
 <xmx:_cdRY4hGKlG6zjwtPe6R0_kjjLlA0m52FX2tpDyA4N1-Jr7Awtd03Q>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu,
 20 Oct 2022 18:13:17 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
 id BE4BC204BA; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:15 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:15 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <Y1HH+zOBHubYsiHR@petertodd.org>
References: <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1D3OkdsCq2pLduG@erisian.com.au>
 <CABZBVTBupMcBbOUtLbMaEmAiWGsMwisNW+k+bTUJGsUad2=ZZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1Gocf216O+yKqqS@erisian.com.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
 protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <Y1Gocf216O+yKqqS@erisian.com.au>
Cc: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
 danger
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:20:48 -0000


--PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wro=
te:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev =
wrote:
> > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this
> > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good
> > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not something
> > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all?
> > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will hav=
e to
> > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC t=
o a
> > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal payme=
nt
> > processor type business.
>=20
> So, what I'm hearing is:
>=20
>  * lightning works great, but is still pretty small
>  * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF

It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf works great" =
for
them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure
propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small numb=
er
of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using =
up
inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guarantee"
services, and the end result is not good.

It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and no =
new
companies start.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

--PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmNRx/YACgkQJIFAPaXw
kfvgCAf9HpK7CJwiqPY/HnzcjwceZXtmwwsq2In+pe7GCfAHsDljwlevBGZ9GwW/
Fhj22kW8KMGDNziQ7XfwgqEAhOaBLWydCxRnAVk2v0LJboFCnrAvlle57ZuMicXZ
xz9h+ZxpDZLAqefWUyH9CAaX6jM57TMfSI3jJzU2KymnfdosCxYbysz18bT9f6Q2
mPvIOc5ZeVdiZtVT/stPkSq1o4R2hKZSMIBKgzMui5oosVJvh2EDrBNURr9xJuX0
KbOgydl1fE9a7gsHu2tYfzL/d2DjTnSC8Q9LdrDC1E47fkqrQJTsXY1JmMWfkjLG
vpHl0vncjb7TdVIgau5auPRTt8SzVw==
=C+IE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--PkwZb1HHyd0sCgfd--