1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
|
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <yifu@coinapex.com>) id 1Yz4Jo-0004mo-Ca
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 31 May 2015 14:34:28 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of coinapex.com
designates 209.85.223.198 as permitted sender)
client-ip=209.85.223.198; envelope-from=yifu@coinapex.com;
helo=mail-ie0-f198.google.com;
Received: from mail-ie0-f198.google.com ([209.85.223.198])
by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1Yz4Jn-0006PZ-3x
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 31 May 2015 14:34:28 +0000
Received: by iecxk8 with SMTP id xk8so193287423iec.3
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Sun, 31 May 2015 07:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20130820;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
bh=JOSMxXXFlHK52BCoHGuOB5/a+j3j+0rHZu0FNhyh+4o=;
b=C0j9k7LOaG2QNh/q50b8JgNjpZCZIReFVkwyZSynIvvYUtahCN08OPdBKWbPR+S5cb
hrUTFEJVyU0dxMO5Zeijk5Rs0u0G5zXhOt25IVIGs7GB+fWw4U6m8zgyOzySqM5yGm5M
XyQtMbHQWrFkVkUql2lidfj0FwPFGeTxRUo7QCyJ5fthrkpq9eNoWbXmTAINMnivfMIq
xQjZ2E8OPfmf8gamfjhc6xJGyFXXZ7r0T+Z/v+ct7JkrGxJEemmfiQOZBFC+tdPNh2ZW
Um+/lWvmPmwUSRcyNlymXZ3Pd5yZpLewGzj2mN0lYcgQRSt42sOvsMs523HBlSHouuDj
B5RA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm5e33r/P3Bo51X1mW7n3E77a3iM6mgdR4Bgr+FSxtd6KtjzGbItqWklfVw2pQ4F9RyfYfX
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.60.62.180 with SMTP id z20mr14815601oer.56.1433082861687;
Sun, 31 May 2015 07:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.202.115.83 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 07:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAFzgq-zTybEQyGz0nq90u5n5JZcJzxQS_XKaTpr5POJi-tHM6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <554BE0E1.5030001@bluematt.me>
<CAFzgq-xByQ1E_33_m3UpXQFUkGc78HKnA=7XXMshANDuTkNsvA@mail.gmail.com>
<CABsx9T0kbRe31LMwk499MQUw225f5GGd67GfhXBezHmDqxkioA@mail.gmail.com>
<CAFzgq-z5WCznGhbOexS0XESNGAVauw45ewEV-1eMij7yDT61=Q@mail.gmail.com>
<CAFzgq-zTybEQyGz0nq90u5n5JZcJzxQS_XKaTpr5POJi-tHM6A@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 10:34:21 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHcfU-WfSPCFrX5OwGQCtOEtDTwWBRmN2r5m_Fi3wAsO7eQWUQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Yifu Guo <yifu@coinapex.com>
To: Chun Wang <1240902@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c21da6e7ad660517619aee
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
0.0 LOTS_OF_MONEY Huge... sums of money
-0.0 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
X-Headers-End: 1Yz4Jn-0006PZ-3x
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 14:34:28 -0000
--001a11c21da6e7ad660517619aee
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I will abstain on this wrangle of "when",
Instead I'd like to address some of the network topology health issues
that's been brought up in this debate.
Due to how blocks are being broadcast by miners at the moment, it is not
difficult to find the origin node of these blocks. These more influential
origin nodes are a minority, about <100 out of ~6000, <2%. These data
points are important to certain attack vectors. It is highly recommended
that pools adopt broadcast logic that rotates broadcasting nodes and
increase their node count.. Eloipool has this implanted for those seeking
to adopt/see it in action in the wild.
China is a particular worse-case due to the sporadic nature of their
internet infrastructure, especially connecting from/to outside of gfw, on a
average node-walk I can get up to a 10% difference while I know for a fact
some of the nodes shown to be down are up.
In F2Pool's case, I see 6 replay nodes, I don't know if that's enough or
that's all the nodes F2Pool runs, but it may be beneficial to set up
multi-homing with shadowsocks over mptcp to increase the stability. also
see if you can get a CERNET connection to be part of your rotations since
their backbone is quite good.
comments, question and grievances welcome.
On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Chun Wang <1240902@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 9:57 PM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Bad miners could attack us and the network with artificial
> >> big blocks.
> >
> >
> > How?
> >
> > I ran some simulations, and I could not find a network topology where a
> big
> > miner producing big blocks could cause a loss of profit to another miner
> > (big or small) producing smaller blocks:
> >
> > http://gavinandresen.ninja/are-bigger-blocks-better-for-bigger-miners
> >
> > (the 0.3% advantage I DID find was for the situation where EVERYBODY was
> > producing big blocks).
>
> If someone propagate a 20MB block, it will take at best 6 seconds for
> us to receive to verify it at current configuration, result of one
> percent orphan rate increase. Or, we can mine the next block only on
> the previous block's header, in this case, the network would see many
> more transaction-less blocks.
>
> Our orphan rate is about 0.5% over the past few months. If the network
> floods 20MB blocks, it can be well above 2%. Besides bandwidth, A 20MB
> block could contain an average of 50000 transactions, hundred of
> thousands of sigops, Do you have an estimate how long it takes on the
> submitblock rpccall?
>
> For references, our 30Mbps bandwidth in Beijing costs us 1350 dollars
> per month. We also use Aliyun and Linode cloud services for block
> propagation. As of May 2015, the price is 0.13 U.S. dollars per GB for
> 100Mbps connectivity at Aliyun. For a single cross-border TCP
> connection, it would be certainly far slower than 12.5 MB/s.
>
> I think we can accept 5MB block at most.
>
> (sorry forgot to cc to the mailing list)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
*Yifu Guo*
*"Life is an everlasting self-improvement."*
--001a11c21da6e7ad660517619aee
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">I will abstai=
n on this wrangle of "when",=C2=A0</span><div style=3D"font-size:=
12.8000001907349px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">I=
nstead I'd like to address some of the network topology health issues t=
hat's been brought up in this debate.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8=
000001907349px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">Due t=
o how blocks are being broadcast by miners at the moment, it is not difficu=
lt to find the origin node of these blocks. These more influential origin n=
odes are a minority, about <100 out of ~6000, <2%. These data points =
are important to certain attack vectors. It is highly recommended that pool=
s adopt broadcast logic that rotates broadcasting nodes and increase their =
node count.. Eloipool has this implanted for those seeking to adopt/see it =
in action in the wild.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">China is a particular wo=
rse-case due to the sporadic nature of their internet infrastructure, espec=
ially connecting from/to outside of gfw, on a average node-walk I can get u=
p to a 10% difference while I know for a fact some of the nodes shown to be=
down are up.<br><div><div><br></div><div>In F2Pool's case, I see 6 rep=
lay nodes, I don't know if that's enough or that's all the node=
s F2Pool runs, but it may be beneficial to set up multi-homing with shadows=
ocks over mptcp to increase the stability. also see if you can get a CERNET=
connection to be part of your rotations since their backbone is quite good=
.</div><div><br></div><div>comments, question and=C2=A0grievances welcome.<=
/div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Chun Wang <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:1240902@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">1240902@gmail.com</a>>=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 9=
:57 PM, Gavin Andresen <<a href=3D"mailto:gavinandresen@gmail.com">gavin=
andresen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Bad miners could attack us and the network with artificial<br>
>> big blocks.<br>
><br>
><br>
> How?<br>
><br>
> I ran some simulations, and I could not find a network topology where =
a big<br>
> miner producing big blocks could cause a loss of profit to another min=
er<br>
> (big or small) producing smaller blocks:<br>
><br>
> <a href=3D"http://gavinandresen.ninja/are-bigger-blocks-better-for-big=
ger-miners" target=3D"_blank">http://gavinandresen.ninja/are-bigger-blocks-=
better-for-bigger-miners</a><br>
><br>
> (the 0.3% advantage I DID find was for the situation where EVERYBODY w=
as<br>
> producing big blocks).<br>
<br>
If someone propagate a 20MB block, it will take at best 6 seconds for<br>
us to receive to verify it at current configuration, result of one<br>
percent orphan rate increase. Or, we can mine the next block only on<br>
the previous block's header, in this case, the network would see many<b=
r>
more transaction-less blocks.<br>
<br>
Our orphan rate is about 0.5% over the past few months. If the network<br>
floods 20MB blocks, it can be well above 2%. Besides bandwidth, A 20MB<br>
block could contain an average of 50000 transactions, hundred of<br>
thousands of sigops, Do you have an estimate how long it takes on the<br>
submitblock rpccall?<br>
<br>
For references, our 30Mbps bandwidth in Beijing costs us 1350 dollars<br>
per month. We also use Aliyun and Linode cloud services for block<br>
propagation. As of May 2015, the price is 0.13 U.S. dollars per GB for<br>
100Mbps connectivity at Aliyun. For a single cross-border TCP<br>
connection, it would be certainly far slower than 12.5 MB/s.<br>
<br>
I think we can accept 5MB block at most.<br>
<br>
(sorry forgot to cc to the mailing list)<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:sm=
all;color:rgb(136,136,136)"><font face=3D"garamond, serif" size=3D"4"><b>Yi=
fu Guo</b></font></span><div style=3D"font-size:small"><font face=3D"verdan=
a, sans-serif"><div style=3D"font-size:13px"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"#333=
333"><i>"Life is an everlasting self-improvement."</i></font></di=
v></font></div></div></div>
</div>
--001a11c21da6e7ad660517619aee--
|