summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/41/0445f5d072923a89eafd734eb4fdda2d0333cf
blob: f410b5dc1af4eeab96ff01b387c2a8bb499e537e (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
Return-Path: <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16E648A7
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  3 Aug 2015 09:01:09 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-pa0-f48.google.com (mail-pa0-f48.google.com
	[209.85.220.48])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0D2C143
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon,  3 Aug 2015 09:01:07 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by pasy3 with SMTP id y3so9921535pas.2
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:01:07 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
	h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc
	:message-id:references:to;
	bh=IPCmP0hTr9xNhv/HNOIWvd0lKq9mc7GZxThpyQx3jcQ=;
	b=cGp+K5sddqut6+Cj8R7Fo4s2/NXfahnCSA+7AooZ0XIzZ2vYW6ababXVUa93OJ1k+i
	fR0bIj5y1NTvYEnRYDmPYJAh+auUNeMFRxpKLguWm9VaZIa6rwFIlinZ6qN853hf0ggE
	drpUQqW6w/EXx4ftFtFkcQAzLvSddRGGB6d+ENQvVOzcd6LvdeksfaUuj4Gu93kxPAU1
	oEMvntx7lLUcpsXIfEy8zLSglidwWDEVSRYYmnwzRwYT3cncWd/S6yp2d6Rq2G2IfHV8
	/hGTrNbUg4LZ2con84dE0qXi7UQhnCnQIK21cORY70xesZyFHaAdEJdaCfz4ayKz9Fzt
	COHw==
X-Received: by 10.66.221.138 with SMTP id qe10mr32794071pac.45.1438592467602; 
	Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:01:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.107] (cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com.
	[76.167.237.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
	cr4sm16768026pac.10.2015.08.03.02.01.04
	(version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
	Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\))
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_1ED4908E-80B8-4F2A-B4A5-676D6BA5CE7E";
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5
From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAO2FKFkMHy0i3GV1aHXu8Hiw5uVnSE2pk17n2mCqOfY-D8Weg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 02:01:02 -0700
Message-Id: <9D6A80DF-83E6-4F98-B7C2-2EE2F79CB2D1@gmail.com>
References: <CANe1mWxsAPzWut_gDqe4R-SkDPBYM392NzeVqbUzjwh+pydsWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALqxMTEMajz6oHnGvocxy=xDFMBc1LaX1iWYM=w1PF0rH3syFg@mail.gmail.com>
	<55BF153B.9030001@bitcartel.com>
	<CAAO2FKEBBS5wxefGCPcurcRGg76sORrBMHvd2SSNiW1q_zWBWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALqxMTE69h5OcnDSqSMeK+BbzFaScEqouQG=pVuyWrqG17BeXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAO2FKHZa_3VzMhQ-EVK9MzSnNGCfwb_GcKJHV52bYcWayJvig@mail.gmail.com>
	<291F9D27-024C-4982-B638-1ACDC4FE0672@gmail.com>
	<CAAO2FKGGyjJT8UhW9m1ZMRY4gmjf3F05mjW1eZ2byT+dwM28Ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A5F47B8-AD42-46CB-993B-661BAD0E62AC@gmail.com>
	<CAAO2FKFkMHy0i3GV1aHXu8Hiw5uVnSE2pk17n2mCqOfY-D8Weg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098)
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLY,HTML_MESSAGE,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A reason we can all agree on to increase block
	size
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 09:01:09 -0000


--Apple-Mail=_1ED4908E-80B8-4F2A-B4A5-676D6BA5CE7E
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6485220-5643-4509-9DE1-FB5C37267D62"


--Apple-Mail=_A6485220-5643-4509-9DE1-FB5C37267D62
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8


> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:52 AM, Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 3 August 2015 at 09:38, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com =
<mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We already have much more efficient, far more scalable systems that =
allow this kind of cooperation you speak of without the inconveniences =
of blockchains and such.
>=20
> There is a degree of difference between cooperation in day-to-day =
usage of the system and cooperation in the rare cases the system has a =
bug.
>=20

If it=E2=80=99s an as-of-yet unidentified issue that comes up, =
yes=E2=80=A6obviously we can=E2=80=99t plan for everything and we=E2=80=99=
ll make some mistakes. But here we=E2=80=99re talking about specific =
well-known issues (or at least well-known today) for which several =
people have proposed potential solutions. However, these things have =
been all but ignored in the public discourse.

> These incidents do, fortunately, present some of the better sides of =
humanity=E2=80=A6but=E2=80=A6the design of the network *broke* - and for =
reasons that are now well understood to be only worsened by larger =
blocks. These incidents are *not supposed to happen* - and if they do, =
it means we=E2=80=99ve botched something up and need to fix it. And by =
fix it, I mean fix the protocol so that given our best understanding of =
things in the present we can significantly reduce the potential for its =
occurrence in the future.
>=20
> Distribution by consensus is inherently a fragile system. The network =
will continue to break again and again as long as programmers are =
fallible. But the types of bugs that occur will change over time as we =
learn the best practices for maintaining the system.

I agree. But again, once we=E2=80=99ve identified specific issues, it is =
irresponsible to continue to pretend they don=E2=80=99t exist=E2=80=A6and =
to more highly prioritize changes that can only make the problem worse.

Again, for the record, I am not against ultimately allowing bigger =
blocks. I think it would be a good thing to be able to do this=E2=80=A6and=
 my main concerns are not around things like equipment costs or typical =
household bandwidth. I just think security is a more important feature =
than greater throughput and prioritize it thusly.


> The correct incentives here were not due to people potentially losing =
a lot of money. The incentives here were well-intentioned altruism. Some =
miners lost money as a result of these actions=E2=80=A6and they didn=E2=80=
=99t put up a fight. if you want to design a system around the =
assumption that this is how all such incidents will be resolved, please =
don=E2=80=99t spoil this for the rest of us.
>=20
> Altruism is a facade that hides other motivations. The party =
cooperating with the miners losing money were doing so to maintain good =
relationships with those miners and to make sure those miners stay =
within the system and not attack it.

I don=E2=80=99t disagree=E2=80=A6clearly even the miners that lost money =
believed that consensus was more valuable to them than a few bitcoins. =
However, it seems to be EXTREMELY dangerous to assume that it will =
always work out this way. What=E2=80=99s to stop a mining majority from =
deciding on-the-fly they want to keep a particular consensus rule that =
benefits them even if the core developers disagree?

>=20
> - Eric
>=20
>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com =
<mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> What's wrong with a little cooperation to resolve things now and =
then? Man is not an island unto himself, we compete with each other and =
we cooperate with each other occasionally if it's mutually beneficial.
>>=20
>> You said yourself that a lot of money would have been lost if the two =
hard forks cited weren't resolved - that's the correct incentives at =
work again.
>>=20
>> On 3 August 2015 at 09:20, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com =
<mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> There have already been two notable incidents requiring manual =
intervention and good-faith cooperation between core devs and mining =
pool operators that would have either never gotten resolved alone or =
would have ended up costing a lot of people a lot of money had no action =
been taken (March 2013 and July 2015). They were both caused by =
consensus disagreement that directly or indirectly were brought about by =
bigger blocks. There is *strong* evidence=E2=80=A6and a great deal of =
theory explaining it=E2=80=A6that links larger blocks with the =
propensity for consensus forks that require manual intervention.
>>=20
>> Please, can we stop saying this is merely about decentralization and =
trustlessness? The very model upon which the security of the system is =
based *broke*=E2=80=A6as in, we were only able to recover because a few =
individuals deliberately manipulated the consensus rules to fix it =
manually. Shouldn=E2=80=99t we more highly prioritize fixing the issues =
that can lead to these incidents than trying to increase throughput? =
Increasing block size cannot possibly make these forking tendencies =
better=E2=80=A6but it very well could make them worse.
>>=20
>> - Eric
>>=20
>>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:06 AM, Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 3 August 2015 at 08:53, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org =
<mailto:adam@cypherspace.org>> wrote:
>>> Again this should not be a political or business compromise model - =
we
>>> must focus on scientific evaluation, technical requirements and
>>> security.
>>>=20
>>> I will assert that the block size is political because it affects =
nearly all users to some degree and not all those users are technically =
inclined or care to keep decentralisation in the current configuration =
as you do. This debate has forgotten the current and future users of =
Bitcoin. Most of them think the hit to node count in the short term =
preferable to making it expensive and competitive to transact.
>>>=20
>>> We all need a little faith that the system will reorganise and =
readjust after the move to big blocks in a way that still has a =
reasonable degree of decentralisation and trustlessness. The incentives =
of Bitcoin remain, so everyone's decentralised decision throughout the =
system, from miners, merchants and users, will continue to act according =
to those incentives.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_A6485220-5643-4509-9DE1-FB5C37267D62
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:52 AM, Hector Chu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com" class=3D"">hectorchu@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at 09:38, Eric Lombrozo <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">We already =
have much more efficient, far more scalable systems that allow this kind =
of cooperation you speak of without the inconveniences of blockchains =
and such.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There is a degree of difference between =
cooperation in day-to-day usage of the system and cooperation in the =
rare cases the system has a bug.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If it=E2=80=99s an as-of-yet unidentified issue =
that comes up, yes=E2=80=A6obviously we can=E2=80=99t plan for =
everything and we=E2=80=99ll make some mistakes. But here we=E2=80=99re =
talking about specific well-known issues (or at least well-known today) =
for which several people have proposed potential solutions. However, =
these things have been all but ignored in the public discourse.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">These =
incidents do, fortunately, present some of the better sides of =
humanity=E2=80=A6but=E2=80=A6the design of the network *broke* - and for =
reasons that are now well understood to be only worsened by larger =
blocks. These incidents are *not supposed to happen* - and if they do, =
it means we=E2=80=99ve botched something up and need to fix it. And by =
fix it, I mean fix the protocol so that given our best understanding of =
things in the present we can significantly reduce the potential for its =
occurrence in the future.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Distribution by consensus is inherently =
a fragile system. The network will continue to break again and again as =
long as programmers are fallible. But the types of bugs that occur will =
change over time as we learn the best practices for maintaining the =
system.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>I agree. But again, once we=E2=80=99ve identified =
specific issues, it is irresponsible to continue to pretend they don=E2=80=
=99t exist=E2=80=A6and to more highly prioritize changes that can only =
make the problem worse.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Again, for =
the record, I am not against ultimately allowing bigger blocks. I think =
it would be a good thing to be able to do this=E2=80=A6and my main =
concerns are not around things like equipment costs or typical household =
bandwidth. I just think security is a more important feature than =
greater throughput and prioritize it thusly.<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">The correct =
incentives here were not due to people potentially losing a lot of =
money. The incentives here were well-intentioned altruism. Some miners =
lost money as a result of these actions=E2=80=A6and they didn=E2=80=99t =
put up a fight. if you want to design a system around the assumption =
that this is how all such incidents will be resolved, please don=E2=80=99t=
 spoil this for the rest of us.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Altruism is a facade that hides other =
motivations. The party cooperating with the miners losing money were =
doing so to maintain good relationships with those miners and to make =
sure those miners stay within the system and not attack =
it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I =
don=E2=80=99t disagree=E2=80=A6clearly even the miners that lost money =
believed that consensus was more valuable to them than a few bitcoins. =
However, it seems to be EXTREMELY dangerous to assume that it will =
always work out this way. What=E2=80=99s to stop a mining majority from =
deciding on-the-fly they want to keep a particular consensus rule that =
benefits them even if the core developers disagree?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Eric</div></font></span><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug =
3, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Hector Chu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">hectorchu@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">What's wrong with a little cooperation to resolve things now =
and then? Man is not an island unto himself, we compete with each other =
and we cooperate with each other occasionally if it's mutually =
beneficial.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You said =
yourself that a lot of money would have been lost if the two hard forks =
cited weren't resolved - that's the correct incentives at work =
again.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at 09:20, Eric Lombrozo <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">There have already been two =
notable incidents requiring manual intervention and good-faith =
cooperation between core devs and mining pool operators that would have =
either never gotten resolved alone or would have ended up costing a lot =
of people a lot of money had no action been taken (March 2013 and July =
2015). They were both caused by consensus disagreement that directly or =
indirectly were brought about by bigger blocks. There is *strong* =
evidence=E2=80=A6and a great deal of theory explaining it=E2=80=A6that =
links larger blocks with the propensity for consensus forks that require =
manual intervention.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please, can we stop saying this is merely about =
decentralization and trustlessness? The very model upon which the =
security of the system is based *broke*=E2=80=A6as in, we were only able =
to recover because a few individuals deliberately manipulated the =
consensus rules to fix it manually. Shouldn=E2=80=99t we more highly =
prioritize fixing the issues that can lead to these incidents than =
trying to increase throughput? Increasing block size cannot possibly =
make these forking tendencies better=E2=80=A6but it very well could make =
them worse.</div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
Eric</div></font></span><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:06 AM, Hector Chu via =
bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at =
08:53, Adam Back <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adam@cypherspace.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Again this should not =
be a political or business compromise model - we<br class=3D"">
must focus on scientific evaluation, technical requirements and<br =
class=3D"">
security.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>I will assert that the block size is political because =
it affects nearly all users to some degree and not all those users are =
technically inclined or care to keep decentralisation in the current =
configuration as you do. This debate has forgotten the current and =
future users of Bitcoin. Most of them think the hit to node count in the =
short term preferable to making it expensive and competitive to =
transact.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">We all need a little faith that the system will =
reorganise and readjust after the move to big blocks in a way that still =
has a reasonable degree of decentralisation and trustlessness. The =
incentives of Bitcoin remain, so everyone's decentralised decision =
throughout the system, from miners, merchants and users, will continue =
to act according to those incentives.</div></div></div></div></div><span =
class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/a><br class=3D""></span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_A6485220-5643-4509-9DE1-FB5C37267D62--

--Apple-Mail=_1ED4908E-80B8-4F2A-B4A5-676D6BA5CE7E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
	name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
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=Wmhe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Apple-Mail=_1ED4908E-80B8-4F2A-B4A5-676D6BA5CE7E--