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From: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <daf438d1-7cca-aa0f-6bf7-3eef0d765d49@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:09:21 -0400
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X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
 scaling without Miners owning our BTC
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I think this response speaks for itself.

On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the
> semantics of the word "burn".
>
> The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.
>
> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent to
> the amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from — as
> stated in the OP.
>
> If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
>
>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com
>> <mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact@taoeffect.com
>> <mailto:contact@taoeffect.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Paul,
>>
>>     It's a two-way peg.
>>
>>     There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
>>
>>     They work in the exact same manner.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>     Greg
>>
>>     --
>>     Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
>>     sharing with the NSA.
>>
>>>     On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
>>>
>>>     In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses
>>>     parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any
>>>     side-to-main transfer to succeed.
>>>
>>>     One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>>>     On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev"
>>>     <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Dear list,
>>>
>>>         In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like
>>>         proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals — that
>>>         do not sacrifice Bitcoin's security — would come along.
>>>
>>>         I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just
>>>         send off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely
>>>         to have time to write up a detailed proposal.
>>>
>>>         The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm
>>>         sure others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar
>>>         ideas (e.g. burning coins) before.
>>>
>>>         This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains,
>>>         including Bitcoin.
>>>
>>>         Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent
>>>         to Chain B".
>>>
>>>         Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting
>>>         transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that
>>>         coins do not get lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly
>>>         certain the folks on this list can figure out those details.
>>>
>>>         - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily
>>>         verify that said action took place, and therefore accept the
>>>         "newly minted" coins on B as valid.
>>>         - Users client software now also knows where to look for the
>>>         other coins (if for some reason it needs to).
>>>
>>>         This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin
>>>         protocol as most of the verification is done client-side.
>>>
>>>         It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our
>>>         ownership of our coins to miners to get scale.
>>>
>>>         My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in
>>>         which case, I would be very grateful for a link to the
>>>         proposal).
>>>
>>>         Cheers,
>>>         Greg Slepak
>>>
>>>         * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
>>>
>>>         --
>>>         Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable
>>>         also sharing with the NSA.
>>>
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>         bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>         <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>>>         https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>         <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I think this response speaks for
      itself.<br>
      <br>
      On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:FBD96A02-243E-4E09-9204-EC90DE5EE576@taoeffect.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div class="">Hi Paul,</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I thought it was clear, but apparently you are
        getting stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">When you transfer them back, you get newly minted
        coins, equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're
        transferring from — as stated in the OP.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.</div>
      <div class="">
        <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
          font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
          normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
          normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
          2; widows: 2;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          --</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
          Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
          letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
          text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
          normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
          normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
          2; widows: 2;" class="">
        <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
          font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
          normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
          normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
          2; widows: 2;" class="">Please do not email me anything that
          you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style="color:
          rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
          font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
          normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
          font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal;
          font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
          2; widows: 2;" class=""> with the NSA.</span>
      </div>
      <br class="">
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a
              href="mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class="">
            <div dir="auto" class="">Haha, no. Because you "burned" the
              coins.</div>
            <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
              <div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao
                Effect" &lt;<a href="mailto:contact@taoeffect.com"
                  class="" moz-do-not-send="true">contact@taoeffect.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Paul,
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">It's a two-way peg.</div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">There's nothing preventing transfers
                      back to the main chain.</div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">They work in the exact same manner.</div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">Cheers,</div>
                    <div class="">Greg<br class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
                          normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
                          font-variant-alternates: normal;
                          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
                          normal;" class=""><br
                            class="m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline">
                          --</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
                          start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
                          font-variant-ligatures: normal;
                          font-variant-numeric: normal;
                          font-variant-alternates: normal;
                          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
                          normal;" class="">
                        <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
                          normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
                          font-variant-alternates: normal;
                          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
                          normal;" class="">Please do not email me
                          anything that you are not comfortable also
                          sharing</span><span style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
                          normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
                          font-variant-alternates: normal;
                          font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
                          normal;" class=""> with the NSA.</span>
                      </div>
                      <br class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                          <div class="">On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul
                            Sztorc &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank" class=""
                              moz-do-not-send="true">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:</div>
                          <br
                            class="m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchange-newline">
                          <div class="">
                            <div dir="auto" class="">
                              <div class="">That is only a one-way peg,
                                not a two-way.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">In fact, that is
                                exactly what drivechain does, if one
                                chooses parameters for the drivechain
                                that make it impossible for any
                                side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">One-way pegs have
                                strong first-mover disadvantages.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">Paul<br class="">
                                <div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br
                                    class="">
                                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 9,
                                    2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via
                                    bitcoin-dev" &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
                                      target="_blank" class=""
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr
                                        class="">linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<br type="attribution"
                                      class="">
                                    <blockquote
                                      class="m_8294306076325067848quote"
                                      style="margin:0 0 0
                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                      <div style="word-wrap:break-word"
                                        class="">
                                        <div
                                          style="word-wrap:break-word"
                                          class="">Dear list,
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">In previous
                                            arguments over Drivechain
                                            (and Drivechain-like
                                            proposals) I promised that
                                            better scaling proposals —
                                            that do not sacrifice
                                            Bitcoin's security — would
                                            come along.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">I planned to do
                                            a detailed writeup, but have
                                            decided to just send off
                                            this email with what I have,
                                            because I'm unlikely to have
                                            time to write up a detailed
                                            proposal.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">The idea is very
                                            simple (and by no means
                                            novel*), and I'm sure others
                                            have mentioned either
                                            exactly it, or similar ideas
                                            (e.g. burning coins) before.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">This is a
                                            generic sharding protocol
                                            for all blockchains,
                                            including Bitcoin.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">Users simply
                                            say: "My coins on Chain A
                                            are going to be sent to
                                            Chain B".</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">Then they burn
                                            the coins on Chain A, and
                                            create a minting transaction
                                            on Chain B. The details of
                                            how to ensure that coins do
                                            not get lost needs to be
                                            worked out, but I'm fairly
                                            certain the folks on this
                                            list can figure out those
                                            details.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">- Thin clients,
                                            nodes, and miners, can all
                                            very easily verify that said
                                            action took place, and
                                            therefore accept the "newly
                                            minted" coins on B as valid.</div>
                                          <div class="">- Users client
                                            software now also knows
                                            where to look for the other
                                            coins (if for some reason it
                                            needs to).</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">This doesn't
                                            even need much modification
                                            to the Bitcoin protocol as
                                            most of the verification is
                                            done client-side.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">It is fully
                                            decentralized, and there's
                                            no need to give our
                                            ownership of our coins to
                                            miners to get scale.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">My sincere
                                            apologies if this has been
                                            brought up before (in which
                                            case, I would be very
                                            grateful for a link to the
                                            proposal).</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">Cheers,</div>
                                          <div class="">Greg Slepak</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">* This idea is
                                            similar in spirit to
                                            Interledger.</div>
                                          <div class=""><br class="">
                                          </div>
                                          <div class="">
                                            <div class="">
                                              <div class=""><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal"
                                                  class="">--</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal"
                                                  class="">
                                                <span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal"
                                                  class="">Please do not
                                                  email me anything that
                                                  you are not
                                                  comfortable also
                                                  sharing</span><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal"
                                                  class=""> with the
                                                  NSA.</span>
                                              </div>
                                              <br class="">
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <br class="">
                                      ______________________________<wbr
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                                          class="">ion.org</a><br
                                        class="">
                                      <a
                                        href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"
                                        rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                        class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr
                                          class="">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr
                                          class="">ev</a><br class="">
                                      <br class="">
                                    </blockquote>
                                  </div>
                                  <br class="">
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br class="">
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br class="">
    </blockquote>
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