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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage
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Isn't a faster blockchain for transactions (maybe as a sidechain) solving
the problem? If there would be a safe way for 0-confirmation transactions,
the Bitcoin blockchain wouldn't even be needed.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Right, this works in the Bitcoin network today absent any collusion by
>> the miners. You give one miner a transaction and you give every other
>> node you can reach another transaction.
>>
>
> Yes, but that can be fixed with double spend alerts.
>
>
>> Someone you ask to not double spend is an entirely separate matter.
>> They aren't self-selecting: you select who you trust to not make
>> double spends and there is no need for this trust to be globally
>> consistent.
>>
>
> No? It's not just your decision that matters, the receiver also has to
> trust them. They're like a dispute mediator in this regard. You can pick
> whoever you want, but that doesn't matter if the receiver doesn't recognise
> them or trust them. You have to find an overlap to make an instant trade.
>
> In practice if people have to think about this, evaluate brands etc then
> you'd get a very small number of parties because the value of global
> agreement is so high. Then it becomes hard to remove ones that have a lot
> of momentum.
>
> The censorship resistance of the block chain doesn't matter if your double
> spending partners refuse to help you spend your money (because they're
> being coerced). The censorship can just happen at a different place.
>
>
>> To stop GHash.io we would have to take away their hardware or change the
>> Bitcoin
>> protocol to make their hardware useless
>>
>
> ..... or, have a majority decide to zero out their coinbase rewards for
> blocks that double spent against dice sites. That wouldn't undo the double
> spend, but you can't do that with the multisig scheme either. All you can
> do is punish the corrupted party post-hoc, either by not using them again,
> or by "unpaying" them for the service they did not provide.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--001a1136b5e491918e04f7bbcc8d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Isn't a faster blockchain for transactions (maybe as a=
sidechain) solving the problem? If there would be a safe way for 0-confirm=
ation transactions, the Bitcoin blockchain wouldn't even be needed.</di=
v>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 2=
3, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Mike Hearn <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mik=
e@plan99.net" target=3D"_blank">mike@plan99.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
class=3D"">On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Gregory Maxwell <span dir=3D"=
ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@g=
mail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Right, this works in the Bitcoin networ=
k today absent any collusion by<br></div>
the miners. You give one miner a transaction and you give every other<br>
node you can reach another transaction.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></di=
v><div>Yes, but that can be fixed with double spend alerts.</div><div class=
=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Someone you ask to not double spend is an entirely separate matter.<br=
></div>
They aren't self-selecting: you select who you trust to not make<br>
double spends and there is no need for this trust to be globally<br>
consistent.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>No? It's not just=
your decision that matters, the receiver also has to trust them. They'=
re like a dispute mediator in this regard. You can pick whoever you want, b=
ut that doesn't matter if the receiver doesn't recognise them or tr=
ust them. You have to find an overlap to make an instant trade.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In practice if people have to think about this, evaluat=
e brands etc then you'd get a very small number of parties because the =
value of global agreement is so high. Then it becomes hard to remove ones t=
hat have a lot of momentum.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The censorship resistance of the block chain doesn'=
t matter if your double spending partners refuse to help you spend your mon=
ey (because they're being coerced). The censorship can just happen at a=
different place.</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">To stop GHash.io=C2=A0we wo=
uld have to take away their hardware or change the Bitcoin<br>
protocol to make their hardware useless<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></=
div><div>..... or, have a majority decide to zero out their coinbase reward=
s for blocks that double spent against dice sites. That wouldn't undo t=
he double spend, but you can't do that with the multisig scheme either.=
All you can do is punish the corrupted party post-hoc, either by not using=
them again, or by "unpaying" them for the service they did not p=
rovide.</div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br>
Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br>
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Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform<br>
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et/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br>_______________________________________________<b=
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velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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