1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
|
Return-Path: <craigraw@gmail.com>
Received: from silver.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D26C013A
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:15:41 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A781A2E1A1
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:15:41 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
Received: from silver.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id l3zbduyuxSMH
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:15:39 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-io1-f43.google.com (mail-io1-f43.google.com
[209.85.166.43])
by silver.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EA532035D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:15:39 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-io1-f43.google.com with SMTP id x21so4349832iog.10
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:15:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc; bh=o0JMgmgtD3Fcz86VJE6yMxny916OcK/4HQ4xqOog0RQ=;
b=i4RklPbxj20cE6b9npBMMGkIKBUAihKbKcHAI+v0SLJAkjixgBmjxq9+tRBLRDv5pl
1QOhu2JAtvc6E4wo4k9cCeBkCdvGqOezNsnjg16emdEJjWaV7TCMjQzCwxtr+E8tDruI
un+xA/73295NllYZ7Xervl0urneAC6zxkdDxn3XL0uF4ULVmyXDmasrEXQGsf68+1K3Y
69owQt0gZN2s8hDwUwZLeWkcK6++yM8oEW3rH9m/OUtMS1v6CMqoGfM4YGZf52pvAEwS
GLXUBuj1+gDfqQukAkV5ANqzUrvPQzfPjv7O3oAE1acDyMzH3B5sXp6E45iPx1FWVcSp
MyEQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=o0JMgmgtD3Fcz86VJE6yMxny916OcK/4HQ4xqOog0RQ=;
b=MhXwY0a9JE60AFfyu6qOYBDOLnisQTjLiIR6Ecb80TH5dOrv9YusVR944QghOQYtuT
sGdfwkIiy3NqfICLcXfpEUkRVecm/eJomvVUkYKMylz6fuoXLNNzuHf98yfxRBt6o0p6
CUEB6HYUcdo/UZUchJuYUAw/5Qv1jkbLrEXbx8XgQ+5AabcvmrCPAnzh/HjDQL+iwSrU
t1/BaANKhaPdDu3GkhGmlrXvgHntUg19qe6455E/AMwp7IlfFppFvWjpxMmCBd2aSt9l
5B6MsiB5i277ms6YCORwrv9IG5fbRM3CuuoFqBwu4wg8Mv61pWNn7uhqyxDDPNou6Ssy
6hjA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532XPdeo/ambGEX5GYy3bjHBV24eRFWyb4nwSvcBIEDzLMiInZba
6CKKxtxMmMAvnBDYHR6IXfeLt45DwAe0x9sY//FbGzbA
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhE0Gn4fKZuYilNsiKuoShPBifkNPXYx/hYf9uPcO700E+3CwFI4gOkxEIfvhF3mToJlhjAA9SlhfZGxFWVkw=
X-Received: by 2002:a02:634b:: with SMTP id j72mr5424543jac.106.1610777738715;
Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:15:38 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <2b8ba39f-8fe9-8800-b8e6-47ca263774d5@riseup.net>
<MRPJ51OJKiOHFfMaz1Y0XC-BWAyJqQFRQttP5sApf8_gtlVk3k-jziFACTwFZ3QPK3jFZ9yaVmFXf9BuN-dbo3J1JrWjLTkk3wKw1LfocKk=@fitti.io>
In-Reply-To: <MRPJ51OJKiOHFfMaz1Y0XC-BWAyJqQFRQttP5sApf8_gtlVk3k-jziFACTwFZ3QPK3jFZ9yaVmFXf9BuN-dbo3J1JrWjLTkk3wKw1LfocKk=@fitti.io>
From: Craig Raw <craigraw@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:15:27 +0200
Message-ID: <CAPR5oBPJPs1g32K3XDnNyV3bKCq58fti3mNd-ooFhKNMVxCf9g@mail.gmail.com>
To: dev_f <dev@fitti.io>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eda97005b8fe6a6e"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:49:37 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:15:41 -0000
--000000000000eda97005b8fe6a6e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Chris,
You can add Sparrow Wallet to the list for Sending :)
I think one of the barriers to greater Payjoin adoption is the need for a
server endpoint on the receiving side. Ideally, all wallets should be able
to conduct Payjoin transactions with each other. This would require a
different mechanism to exchange the PSBTs, but otherwise the specification
should need no amendment. Samourai has implemented their Soroban protocol
to do this over Tor, but as far as I know it's not yet documented.
Given Payjoin is fee efficient (much more so than coinjoin) and relatively
simple to implement, it appears to hold great promise in disrupting
blockchain analysis. I'd love to see a standard that wallets can adopt to
receive Payjoin transactions without a server endpoint.
Craig
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:13 AM dev_f via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hey Chris,
>
> I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of
> visibility.
> I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a
> donation
> and being told by the site that PayJoin was available (
> https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/).
> The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue
> of implementing
> PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos
> seems like it would
> be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in
> general.
> (Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is
> obviously the
> most helpful, though clearly harder.)
>
> As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin
> specifically via
> software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be
> immensely
> helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises.
>
> Fitti
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original =
Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90
>
> On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev=
<
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the
> >
>
> > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on
> >
>
> > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard ha=
s
> >
>
> > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as
> >
>
> > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.
> >
>
> > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:
> >
>
> > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption
> >
>
> > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.
> >
>
> > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with
> >
>
> > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll
> >
>
> > quote here:
> >
>
> > > you=E2=80=99re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and no=
t an
> >
>
> > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you
> >
>
> > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and
> >
>
> > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to
> >
>
> > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become
> >
>
> > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your
> >
>
> > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did
> >
>
> > wrong. And quite possibly you didn=E2=80=99t do anything wrong. But tha=
t won=E2=80=99t
> >
>
> > matter.
> >
>
> > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this
> >
>
> > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal
> >
>
> > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere
> >
>
> > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a
> >
>
> > regular bank account. You won=E2=80=99t have a bitcoin wallet, you will=
have
> >
>
> > accounts to websites.
> >
>
> > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye
> >
>
> > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for
> >
>
> > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increas=
e
> >
>
> > adoption of PayJoin?
> >
>
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >
>
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >
>
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--000000000000eda97005b8fe6a6e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Chris,<div><br></div><div>You can add Sparrow Wallet t=
o the list for Sending :)</div><div><br></div><div>I think one of the barri=
ers to greater Payjoin adoption is the need for a server endpoint on the re=
ceiving=C2=A0side. Ideally, all wallets should be able to conduct Payjoin t=
ransactions with each other. This would require a different mechanism to ex=
change the PSBTs, but otherwise the specification should need no amendment.=
Samourai has implemented their Soroban protocol to do this over Tor, but a=
s far as I know it's not yet documented.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>Given Payjoin is fee efficient (much more so than coinjoin) and relatively=
simple to implement, it appears to hold great promise in disrupting blockc=
hain analysis. I'd love to see a standard that wallets can adopt to rec=
eive=C2=A0Payjoin transactions without a server endpoint.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Craig</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:13 AM dev_f via bitcoin-dev &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">Hey Chris,<br>
<br>
I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of visibi=
lity.<br>
I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a do=
nation<br>
and being told by the site that PayJoin was available (<a href=3D"https://h=
rf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/</a>).<br>
The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue o=
f implementing<br>
PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos seem=
s like it would<br>
be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in genera=
l.<br>
(Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is obvi=
ously the<br>
most helpful, though clearly harder.)<br>
<br>
As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin specificall=
y via<br>
software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be immens=
ely<br>
helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises.<br>
<br>
Fitti<br>
<br>
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me=
ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90<br>
<br>
On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the<br>
> <br>
<br>
> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on<b=
r>
> <br>
<br>
> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standa=
rd has<br>
> <br>
<br>
> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as<b=
r>
> <br>
<br>
> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet.<br>
> <br>
<br>
> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption:<br>
> <br>
<br>
> <a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page.<br>
> <br>
<br>
> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with<=
br>
> <br>
<br>
> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'=
;ll<br>
> <br>
<br>
> quote here:<br>
> <br>
<br>
> > you=E2=80=99re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace an=
d not an<br>
> <br>
<br>
> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you<=
br>
> <br>
<br>
> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and<br>
> <br>
<br>
> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to<br>
> <br>
<br>
> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become<b=
r>
> <br>
<br>
> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your=
<br>
> <br>
<br>
> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did<=
br>
> <br>
<br>
> wrong. And quite possibly you didn=E2=80=99t do anything wrong. But th=
at won=E2=80=99t<br>
> <br>
<br>
> matter.<br>
> <br>
<br>
> > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along th=
is<br>
> <br>
<br>
> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal<=
br>
> <br>
<br>
> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere<b=
r>
> <br>
<br>
> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to =
a<br>
> <br>
<br>
> regular bank account. You won=E2=80=99t have a bitcoin wallet, you wil=
l have<br>
> <br>
<br>
> accounts to websites.<br>
> <br>
<br>
> <a href=3D"https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638=
504004285054976/goodbye</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for<=
br>
> <br>
<br>
> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to in=
crease<br>
> <br>
<br>
> adoption of PayJoin?<br>
> <br>
<br>
> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
> <br>
<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-=
dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>__________________________________________=
_____<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000eda97005b8fe6a6e--
|