1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
|
Return-Path: <eric@voskuil.org>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A567AE0
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:54:23 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-io1-f53.google.com (mail-io1-f53.google.com
[209.85.166.53])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F09187B
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:54:22 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-io1-f53.google.com with SMTP id s7so13960544iob.11
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 04 Jul 2019 09:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623;
h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id
:references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
bh=3Pz1Qsjmxje8Xvqo6/567SD0KYGjARo8LaCMkOiRTxs=;
b=u1qibdjEvu+gbLTh0oO47bbv7TNogtcsOkjAncEJ2YXKsDsvTY46XWLlPF31Qxkizx
x0oEsruIGIatTMMLQb6AIomvPq8tP3LYHWfsaNh/6nGHUutm7ABMdy6/rXdzGu9GGOaa
qoitbpTQ+Ot8jcAeuV4a+LYJc303RLXMgVQpfDbtFhjPxOCR/NsJ/Km6564tU5Lu4dFm
vlvYSUUfTMb+ER3etidHIWuikwy8nLo0kUOUscsqs2MK4gNNnqPmTrXMivR9pvOev+Pf
Rr0K5bE+e+PLL1eBqwTRCKaGrvI4vq9aFrewiDXA0FN+ffOw3TYbc13yYYcaFNMjyb3r
Njkw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version
:subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to;
bh=3Pz1Qsjmxje8Xvqo6/567SD0KYGjARo8LaCMkOiRTxs=;
b=ovmn+oo1vGsMYNU8QjfpbEkxBSFogKsHiFb3FI23IisKj9gsmm7r7Vm/hQXq/Itclf
akF6yPiXeouX1l+aY0P/v+o5gOaesMUpAvMcMo6RfztKryUrOX+cUVi9geMXz7aDthCk
bkHsRM9D5Oed35pq03nbEyQs/N/FQRONxFOphon9C5JOdqVkDrYmclrEFj78htHBOdFn
he1zn+DAxBC0S8a7T/FfWwxz2llNH+XNcSlsyOyvCaCe+gonWevryfEm6LZy56hvvgf2
Y3oJw80y8zZdA+3LyVbhyOPPGgwUnM2c2eJdQpEvcirmFquxMWGDVCFeegsLufYxQ3nS
fpNA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXzmK06INg7M7BZMTEe072KZS3LfN6Ro07+PXyXWTtLpa58F3JV
nz2IfhxBfQcChXE9Ht/bqetJ/w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy1ikYfzBNfnNI2nmSpSqQrCUJ1Dyf8l7O+KJZIi2KianGhz1X48RNaikdDQyFMl0D0IUllBA==
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8ad0:: with SMTP id e16mr336467iot.262.1562259261672;
Thu, 04 Jul 2019 09:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:c458:7e3a:5803:ef0e:5551:2919?
([2600:380:c458:7e3a:5803:ef0e:5551:2919])
by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
h19sm4064993iol.65.2019.07.04.09.54.20
(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
Thu, 04 Jul 2019 09:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 11:43:45 -0500
Message-Id: <F17F2E86-BFA4-456E-85F9-0D6583692AEC@voskuil.org>
References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com>
<BF027CD0-FE29-4DD1-AB96-DE92B597AD18@gmail.com>
<3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org>
<A4A6099F-F115-4CBF-B7D5-F16581476126@gmail.com>
<063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org>
<0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com>
<E72C4A8E-F850-400B-B19B-7D06B8A169EC@voskuil.org>
<A64C3DCB-10CE-45EA-9A1B-7E3D13DF90EA@gmail.com>
<6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org>
<SEQmsx6ck79biVthBbBk1b9r9-R45sBwqWrv3FewQIBl4J18sOlwAPRt8sbTIbrBB8DX538GfwQkU40lyODmEkGSwah_VmbXT8iOr2Jcjlw=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <SEQmsx6ck79biVthBbBk1b9r9-R45sBwqWrv3FewQIBl4J18sOlwAPRt8sbTIbrBB8DX538GfwQkU40lyODmEkGSwah_VmbXT8iOr2Jcjlw=@protonmail.com>
To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203)
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:53:56 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable
riskless or risky lending,
prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 16:54:23 -0000
Hi ZmnSCPxj,
Generalizing a bit this appears to be the same with one exception. The amoun=
t of encumbered coin is relevant to an external observer. Of course the effe=
ctive dust limit is the maximum necessary encumbrance otherwise.
In the case of simple tracking, the market value of the coin is not relevant=
, all that is required is a valid output. Hence the devolution to 1 sat trac=
king. In your scenario the objective is to establish a meaningful cost for t=
he output.
A community of people using this as a sort of hashcash spam protection can r=
aise the amount of encumbered coin (i.e. advertising threshold price) requir=
ed in that context. The cost of this encumberance includes not only at least=
one tx fee but market cost of the coin rental.
At a 1 year advertisement term, 10% APR capital cost, and threshold of 1 enc=
umbered coin, the same is achieved by burning .1 coin. In other words the re=
nter (advertiser) has actually paid to the coin owner .1 coin to rent 1 coin=
for one year.
As with Bitcoin mining, it is the consumed cost that matters in this scenari=
o, (i.e., not the hash rate, or in this case the encumbered coin face value)=
. Why would the advertiser not simply be required to burn .1 coin for the sa=
me privilege, just as miners burn energy? Why would it not make more sense t=
o spend that coin in support of the secondary network (e.g. paying for confi=
rmation security), just as with the burning of energy in Bitcoin mining?
e
> On Jul 3, 2019, at 23:57, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Good morning Eric,
>=20
>=20
>>> and thanks to you and ZmnSCPxj we now have two additional uses cases for=
UTXOs that are only temporarily accessible to their current owner.
>>=20
>> Actually you have a single potentially-valid use case, the one I have pre=
sented. The others I have shown to be invalid (apart from scamming) and no a=
dditional information to demonstrate errors in my conclusions have been offe=
red.
>=20
> I presented another use case, that of the "Bitcoin Classified Ads Network"=
.
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-July/017083.h=
tml
>=20
> Advertisements are "backed" by an unspent TXO.
> In order to limit their local resource consumption, nodes of this network w=
ill preferentially keep advertisements that are backed by higher UTXO values=
divided by advertisement size, and drop those with too low UTXO value divid=
ed by advertisement size.
>=20
> Thus, spammers will either need to rent larger UTXO values for their spam,=
paying for the higher rent involved, or fall back to pre-Bitcoin spamming m=
ethods.
> Thus I think I have presented a use-case that is viable for this and does n=
ot simply devolve to "just burn a 1-satoshi output".
>=20
> I still do not quite support generalized covenants as the use-case is alre=
ady possible on current Bitcoin (and given that with just a little more tran=
saction introspection this enables Turing-completeness), but the basic conce=
pt of "renting a UTXO of substantial value" appears sound to me.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
|
