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From: Andrew <onelineproof@gmail.com>
To: Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase
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On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 05/09/2015 02:02 PM, Andrew wrote:
> > The nice thing about 1 MB is that you can store ALL bitcoin
> > transactions relevant to your lifetime (~100 years) on one 5 TB
> > hard drive (1*6*24*365*100=5256000). Any regular person can run a
> > full node and store this 5 TB hard drive easily at their home. With
> > 10 MB blocks you need a 50 TB drive just for your bitcoin
> > transactions! This is not doable for most regular people due to
> > space and monetary constraints. Being able to review all
> > transactions relevant to your lifetime is one of the key important
> > properties of Bitcoin. How else can people audit the financial
> > transactions of companies and governments that are using the
> > Bitcoin blockchain? How else can we achieve this level of
> > transparency that is essential to keeping corrupt
> > governments/companies in check? How else can we keep track of our
> > own personal transactions without relying on others to keep track
> > of them for us? As time passes, storage technology may increase,
> > but so may human life expectancy. So yes, in this sense, 1 MB just
> > may be the magic number.
>
> How many individuals and companies do you propose will ever use
> Bitcoin (order of magnitude estimates are fine)
>
> Whatever number you select above, please describe approximately how
> many lifetime Bitcoin transactions each individual and company will be
> capable of performing with a 1 MB block size limit.
>

I would expect at least 10 billion people (directly or indirectly) to be
using it at once for at least 100 years. But I think it's pointless to
guess how many will use it, but rather make the system ready for 10 billion
people. The point is that for small transactions, they will be done
off-chain. The actual Bitcoin blockchain will only show very large
transactions (such as a military purchasing a new space shuttle) or
aggregate transactions (i.e. a transaction consisting of multiple smaller
transactions done off-chain). There can also be multiple layers of chains
creating a tree-like structure. Each chain above will validate the
aggregate transactions of the chain below. You can think of the Bitcoin
blockchain as the "hypervisor" that manages all the other chains. While
your coffee purchase 4 days ago may not be directly visible within the
Bitcoin blockchain (the main chain), you can trace it down the sequence of
chains until you find it. Same with that fancy dinner your government MP
paid for using public funds. You don't have to store a copy of all
transactions that occurred for each chain in existence, but rather just the
transactions for the chains that you use or are relevant to you.

As you see, this kind of system is totally transparent to all users and
totally flexible (you can choose your sub chains). The flexibility also
allows you to have arbitrarily fast transactions (choose a chain or
lightning channel attached to that chain that supports it), and you can
enjoy a wide variety of features from other chains, like using one chain
that is known to have good anonymity properties.


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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
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>


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--20cf301fb60dc72eac0515aa61fc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Justus Ranvier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:justusranvier@riseup.net" target=3D"_blank">justusranvier@=
riseup.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span cl=
ass=3D"">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
</span><span class=3D"">On 05/09/2015 02:02 PM, Andrew wrote:<br>
&gt; The nice thing about 1 MB is that you can store ALL bitcoin<br>
&gt; transactions relevant to your lifetime (~100 years) on one 5 TB<br>
&gt; hard drive (1*6*24*365*100=3D5256000). Any regular person can run a<br=
>
&gt; full node and store this 5 TB hard drive easily at their home. With<br=
>
&gt; 10 MB blocks you need a 50 TB drive just for your bitcoin<br>
&gt; transactions! This is not doable for most regular people due to<br>
&gt; space and monetary constraints. Being able to review all<br>
&gt; transactions relevant to your lifetime is one of the key important<br>
&gt; properties of Bitcoin. How else can people audit the financial<br>
&gt; transactions of companies and governments that are using the<br>
&gt; Bitcoin blockchain? How else can we achieve this level of<br>
&gt; transparency that is essential to keeping corrupt<br>
&gt; governments/companies in check? How else can we keep track of our<br>
&gt; own personal transactions without relying on others to keep track<br>
&gt; of them for us? As time passes, storage technology may increase,<br>
&gt; but so may human life expectancy. So yes, in this sense, 1 MB just<br>
&gt; may be the magic number.<br>
<br>
</span>How many individuals and companies do you propose will ever use<br>
Bitcoin (order of magnitude estimates are fine)<br>
<br>
Whatever number you select above, please describe approximately how<br>
many lifetime Bitcoin transactions each individual and company will be<br>
capable of performing with a 1 MB block size limit.<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>I would expect at least 10 billion people (directly or indirec=
tly) to be using it at once for at least 100 years. But I think it&#39;s po=
intless to guess how many will use it, but rather make the system ready for=
 10 billion people. The point is that for small transactions, they will be =
done off-chain. The actual Bitcoin blockchain will only show very large tra=
nsactions (such as a military purchasing a new space shuttle) or aggregate =
transactions (i.e. a transaction consisting of multiple smaller transaction=
s done off-chain). There can also be multiple layers of chains creating a t=
ree-like structure. Each chain above will validate the aggregate transactio=
ns of the chain below. You can think of the Bitcoin blockchain as the &quot=
;hypervisor&quot; that manages all the other chains. While your coffee purc=
hase 4 days ago may not be directly visible within the Bitcoin blockchain (=
the main chain), you can trace it down the sequence of chains until you fin=
d it. Same with that fancy dinner your government MP paid for using public =
funds. You don&#39;t have to store a copy of all transactions that occurred=
 for each chain in existence, but rather just the transactions for the chai=
ns that you use or are relevant to you.<br><br></div><div>As you see, this =
kind of system is totally transparent to all users and totally flexible (yo=
u can choose your sub chains). The flexibility also allows you to have arbi=
trarily fast transactions (choose a chain or lightning channel attached to =
that chain that supports it), and you can enjoy a wide variety of features =
from other chains, like using one chain that is known to have good anonymit=
y properties.<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
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<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud<br=
>
Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications<br>
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights<br=
>
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.<br>
<a href=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y" target=
=3D"_blank">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y</a><br>=
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature">PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 =C2=A049E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647</d=
iv>
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--20cf301fb60dc72eac0515aa61fc--