path: root/2d/dc9c7926f756dca07e6bb5c0cdb32a3ee917a0

Return-Path: <kanzure@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2747C0032
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  7 Nov 2023 15:37:42 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3964183D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  7 Nov 2023 15:37:42 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 7A3964183D
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com
 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 header.b=ccwSdu95
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id WORLZqlT2yZG
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  7 Nov 2023 15:37:40 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com
 [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FFDF408C0
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  7 Nov 2023 15:37:39 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 6FFDF408C0
Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id
 38308e7fff4ca-2c50cf61f6dso79428191fa.2
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 07 Nov 2023 07:37:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699371456; x=1699976256;
 darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org; 
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject
 :date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=v6SDgJj7o2NJb9dPe45w2PP+ieUFiOS7ooTMyWmkx2g=;
 b=ccwSdu95rlBuufIakr+Acj/yVqnkFHOjYR+8bzT6Gk2tM4cDIMEmHEHiGPzQ9y4jIL
 +J2Aw8z9u77oiNt00RKzW1djrRYRzIrnZfgQmzVlC8A6rdCMhhYnfO23XNxMTa2NkwmE
 DQWN6XUJlwf5hGSk47CwgSJqm+k3LyjZ6cXLxsBfxC+/jmNLt8rKQianGBHrgDPtWMw1
 8xiHcdn0vcbzaRtmAHq74U97RZ9qabXXvmTnUxwdAcrU/litaMvVR/+0faTrO1Qm6jqG
 vWUGg5g0y0qgMTaX7NOIjd/Wyb2sgEoWsayAh7XkotZRiA80ulUyl42gJbp8gMeMu7ml
 EIvw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699371456; x=1699976256;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state
 :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=v6SDgJj7o2NJb9dPe45w2PP+ieUFiOS7ooTMyWmkx2g=;
 b=Fc00ryE0W/2iekgEoALsi+M6iZ08KfUao87lDQFGmOG9G3njucVy87MFw0AJXEt0lc
 7XlQcJgyPWyfa4Wh+lHlbNms2jYq56htmDroZF1eoEspgYPXttvJq1gWPsyrvo0WSKBz
 OBD4E8nydf0K92qtwDI4oRXGwj3aAbj9LvOLWEeaq3ADtm1GVucpqxfrqVDeJ3omXu68
 MpHrN2V4G3/Y+5C59lRoF0VfqOd3xBLg46jkFKHN3H1Ym5lXOmSkDHZBiu5ZVxS4MaNy
 ewFBDSK8CaKL4bVOuBwAzTha+KflUQScPWjLoPD89VbmKLmtiBdhEq5cHCQmSSsErCS2
 cLbQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw6wyBOSIbxaIkuyNi1G3KczT+O9ZTrZDoctpxVbTYgUXf8F2dB
 peyVu0jW/rReg1AHf+HLVEccjy66JHsRIqSq5pF+88mGUok=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHa2L8g7kU8R8Ur6HrkKC6Wr3wdS4lWhIVdy74XAwQ3xFVSzvY6useRKG/KAzGOKk6CCX1+06C35cs72ygJM0A=
X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8054:0:b0:2c5:1542:6147 with SMTP id
 p20-20020a2e8054000000b002c515426147mr25550907ljg.15.1699371456021; Tue, 07
 Nov 2023 07:37:36 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 09:37:22 -0600
Message-ID: <CABaSBaz9OTSVa1KNk0GOrH3T-kRF_7OPVu0AtpuaFGVB=zhdwQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa4a75060991bff2"
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Future of the bitcoin-dev mailing list
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2023 15:37:42 -0000

--000000000000fa4a75060991bff2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

We would like to request community feedback and proposals on the future of
the mailing list.

Our current mailing list host, Linux Foundation, has indicated for years
that they have wanted to stop hosting mailing lists, which would mean the
bitcoin-dev mailing list would need to move somewhere else. We temporarily
avoided that, but recently LF has informed a moderator that they will cease
hosting any mailing lists later this year.

In this email, we will go over some of the history, options, and invite
discussion ahead of the cutoff. We have some ideas but want to solicit
feedback and proposals.

Background
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The bitcoin-dev mailing list was originally hosted on Sourceforge.net. The
bitcoin development mailing list has been a source of proposals, analysis,
and developer discussion for many years in the bitcoin community, with many
thousands of participants. Later, the mailing list was migrated to the
Linux Foundation, and after that OSUOSL began to help.

Linux Foundation first asked us to move the mailing list in 2017. They
internally attempted to migrate all LF mailing lists from mailman2 to
mailman3, but ultimately gave up. There were reports of scalability issues
with mailman3 for large email communities. Ours definitely qualifies as..
large.

2019 migration plan: LF was to turn off mailman and all lists would migrate
to the paid service provider groups.io. Back then we were given accounts to
try the groups.io interface and administration features. Apparently we were
not the only dev community who resisted change. To our surprise LF gave us
several years of reprieve by instead handing the subdomain and server-side
data to the non-profit OSUOSL lab who instead operated mailman2 for the
past ~4 years.

OSUOSL has for decades been well known for providing server infrastructure
for Linux and Open Source development so they were a good fit. This however
became an added maintenance burden for the small non-profit with limited
resources. Several members of the Bitcoin dev community contributed funding
to the lab in support of their Open Source development infrastructure
goals. But throwing money at the problem isn=E2=80=99t going to fix the ong=
oing
maintenance burden created by antiquated limitations of mailman2.

Permalinks
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Linux Foundation has either offered or agreed to maintain archive
permalinks so that content of historic importance is not lost. Fortunately
for us while lists.linuxfoundation.org mailman will go down, they have
agreed the read-only pipermail archives will remain online. So all old URLs
will continue to remain valid. However, the moderators strongly advise that
the community supplements with public-inbox instances to have canonical
archive urls that are separate from any particular email software host.

Public-Inbox
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

https://public-inbox.org/README.html

=E2=80=9CPublic Inbox=E2=80=9D decentralized archiving - no matter what mai=
ling list server
solution is used, anyone can use git to maintain their own mailing list
archive and make it available to read on the web.

Public Inbox is a tool that you can run yourself. You can transform your
mbox file and it makes it browsable and viewable online. It commits every
post to a git repository. It's kind of like a decentralized mail archiving
tool. Anyone can publish the mail archive to any web server they wish.

We should try to have one or more canonical archives that are served using
public-inbox. But it doesn't matter if these are lost because anyone else
can archive the mailing list in the same way and re-publish the archives.

These git commits can also be stamped using opentimestamps, inserting their
hashes into the bitcoin blockchain.

LKML mailing list readers often use public-inbox's web interface, and they
use the reply-to headers to populate their mail client and reply to threads
of interest. This allows their reply to be properly threaded even if they
were not a previous subscriber to that mailing list to receive the headers.

public-inbox makes it so that it doesn't really matter where the list is
hosted, as pertaining to reading the mailing list. There is still a
disruption if the mailing list goes away, but the archives live on and then
people can post elsewhere. The archive gets disconnected from the mailing
list host in terms of posting. We could have a few canonical URLs for the
hosts, separate from the mailing list server.

mailman problems
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Over the years we have identified a number of problems with mailman2
especially as it pertains to content moderation. There are presently a
handful of different moderators, but mailman2 only has a single password
for logging into the email management interface. There are no moderator
audit logs to see which user (there is no concept of different users) acted
on an email. There is no way to mark an email as being investigated by one
or more of the moderators. Sometimes, while investigating the veracity of
an email, another moderator would come in and approve a suspect email by
accident.

Anti spam has been an issue for the moderators. It's relentless. Without
access to the underlying server, it has been difficult to fight spam. There
is some support for filters in mailman2 but it's not great.

100% active moderation and approval of every email is unsustainable for
volunteer moderators. A system that requires moderation is a heavy burden
on the moderators and it slows down overall communication and productivity.
There's lots of problems with this. Also, moderators can be blamed when
they are merely slow while they are not actually censoring.

Rejection emails can optionally be sent to
bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists.ozlabs.org but this is an option that a
moderator has to remember to type in each time.

Not to mention numerous bugs and vulnerabilities that have accumulated over
the years for relatively unmaintained software. (Not disclosed here)

Requirements and considerations
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Looking towards the future, there are a number of properties that seem to
be important for the bitcoin-dev mailing list community. First, it is
important that backups of the entire archive should be easy for the public
to copy or verify so that the system can be brought up elsewhere if
necessary.

Second, there seems to be demand for both an email threading interface
(using mailing list software) as well as web-accessible interfaces (such as
forum software). There seems to be very few options that cater to both
email and web. Often, in forum software, email support is limited to email
notifications and there is limited if any support for email user
participation.

Third, there should be better support for moderator tools and management of
the mailing list. See above for complaints about problems with the mailman2
system.

Burdens of running your own mailing list and email server
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

If you have never operated your own MTA you have no idea how difficult it
is to keep secure and functional in the face of numerous challenges to
deliverability. Anti-spam filtering is essential to prevent forwarding
spam. The moment you forward even a single spam message you run the risk of
the server IP address being added to blacklists.

The problem of spam filtering is so bad that most IP addresses are presumed
guilty even if they have no prior spam history, such as if their network or
subnetwork had spam issues in the past.

Even if you put unlimited time into managing your own email server, other
people may not accept your email. Or you make one mistake, and then you get
into permanent blacklists and it's hard to remove. The spam problem is so
bad that most IPs are automatically on a guilty-until-proven-innocent
blacklist.

Often there is nothing you can do to get server IP addresses removed from
spam blacklists or from "bad reputation" lists.

Ironically, hashcash-style proof-of-work stamps to prevent spam are an
appealing solution but not widely used in this community. Or anywhere.

Infinite rejection or forwarding loops happen. They often need to be
detected through vigilance and require manual sysadmin intervention to
solve.

Bitcoin's dev lists being hosted alongside other Open Source projects was
previously protective. If that mailing list server became blacklisted there
were a lot of other people who would notice and complain. If we run a
Bitcoin-specific mail server we are on our own. 100% of the administrative
burden falls upon our own people. There is also nothing we can do if some
unknown admin decides they don't like us.

Options
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Web forums are an interesting option, but often don't have good email user
integration. At most you can usually hope for email notifications and an
ability to reply by email. It changes the model of the community from push
(email) to pull (logging into a forum to read). RSS feeds can help a little
bit.

Many other projects have moved from mailing lists to forums (eg
https://discuss.python.org/ =E2=80=93 see https://lwn.net/Articles/901744/ =
; or
https://ethresear.ch/), which seem easier to maintain and moderate, and can
have lots of advanced features beyond plaintext, maybe-threading and
maybe-HTML-markup.

Who would host the forum? Would there be agreement around which forum
software to use or which forum host? What about bitcointalk.org or
delvingbitcoin.org? There are many options available. Maybe what we
actually want isn=E2=80=99t so much a discussion forum, as an 'arxiv of our=
 own'
where anons can post BIP drafts and the like?

Given the problems with mailman2, and the decline of email communities in
general, it seems that moving to mailman3 would not be a viable long-term
option. This leaves us with Google Groups or groups.io as two remaining
options.

groups.io is an interesting option: they are a paid service that implements
email communities along with online web forum support. However, their
public changelog indicates it has been a few years since their last public
change. They might be a smaller company and it is unclear how long they
will be around or if this would be the right fit for hosting sometimes
contentious bitcoin development discussions...

Google Groups is another interesting option, and comes with different
tradeoffs. It's the lowest effort to maintain option, and has both an email
interface and web forum interface. Users can choose which mode they want to
interact with.

For the Google Groups web interface, you can use it with a non-gmail
account, but you must create a Google Account which is free to do. it does
not require any personal information to do so. This also allows you to add
2FA. Non-gmail non-google users are able to subscribe and post email from
their non-gmail non-google email accounts. Tor seems to work for the web
interface.

Will Google shut it down, will they cut us off, will they shut down
non-google users? The same problem exists with other third-party hosts.

The moderation capabilities for Google Groups and groups.io seem to be
comparable. It seems more likely that Google Groups will be able to handle
email delivery issues far better than a small resource-constrained
operation like groups.io. ((During feedback for this draft, luke-jr
indicates that Google Workspaces has been known to use blacklisted IPs for
business email!))

On the other hand, groups.io is a paid service and you get what you pay
for... hopefully?

Finally, another option is to do literally nothing. It's less work overall.
Users can switch to forums or other websites, or private one-on-one
communication. It would remove a point of semi-centralization from the
bitcoin ecosystem. It would hasten ossification, but on the other hand it
would hasten ossification and this could be a negative too. Moderators
would be less of a target.

Unfortunately, by doing nothing, there would be no more widely used group
email communication system between bitcoin developers. Developers become
less coordinated, mayhem and chaos as people go to different communication
platforms, a divided community is more vulnerable, etc. BIP1 and BIP2 would
need to be revised for other venues.

The main categories of what to move to are: web forums, mailing lists, and
hybrids of those two options. Most everything is either self-hosted or you
pay someone else to host it. It's kind of the same problem though. It
largely depends on how good is the software and unfortunately running your
own MTA that forwards mail is not a good option.

Going forward
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

We'd like to invite feedback and proposals from the community, and see what
options are available. One potential option is a migration to Google
Groups, but we're open to ideas at this point. We apologize for any
inconvenience this disruption has caused.


Bitcoin-dev mailing list moderation team

Bryan Bishop
Ruben Somsen
Warren Togami
various others.

--=20
- Bryan
https://twitter.com/kanzure

--000000000000fa4a75060991bff2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br><br>We would like to request community=C2=A0feed=
back and proposals on the future of the mailing list.<div><br><div>Our curr=
ent mailing list host, Linux Foundation, has indicated for years that they =
have wanted to stop hosting mailing lists, which would mean the bitcoin-dev=
 mailing list would need to move somewhere else. We temporarily avoided tha=
t, but recently LF has informed a moderator that they will cease hosting an=
y mailing lists later this year.</div><div><br>In this email, we will go ov=
er some of the history, options, and invite discussion ahead of the cutoff.=
 We have some ideas but want to solicit feedback and proposals.<br><br>Back=
ground<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>The bitcoin-dev mailing lis=
t was originally hosted on Sourceforge.net. The bitcoin development mailing=
 list has been a source of proposals, analysis, and developer discussion fo=
r many years in the bitcoin community, with many thousands of participants.=
 Later, the mailing list was migrated to the Linux Foundation, and after th=
at OSUOSL began to help.<br><br>Linux Foundation first asked us to move the=
 mailing list in 2017. They internally attempted to migrate all LF mailing =
lists from mailman2 to mailman3, but ultimately gave up. There were reports=
 of scalability issues with mailman3 for large email communities. Ours defi=
nitely qualifies as.. large.<br><br>2019 migration plan: LF was to turn off=
 mailman and all lists would migrate to the paid service provider <a href=
=3D"http://groups.io">groups.io</a>. Back then we were given accounts to tr=
y the <a href=3D"http://groups.io">groups.io</a> interface and administrati=
on features. Apparently we were not the only dev community who resisted cha=
nge. To our surprise LF gave us several years of reprieve by instead handin=
g the subdomain and server-side data to the non-profit OSUOSL lab who inste=
ad operated mailman2 for the past ~4 years.<br><br>OSUOSL has for decades b=
een well known for providing server infrastructure for Linux and Open Sourc=
e development so they were a good fit. This however became an added mainten=
ance burden for the small non-profit with limited resources. Several member=
s of the Bitcoin dev community contributed funding to the lab in support of=
 their Open Source development infrastructure goals. But throwing money at =
the problem isn=E2=80=99t going to fix the ongoing maintenance burden creat=
ed by antiquated limitations of mailman2.<br><br>Permalinks<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Linux Foundation has either offered or agreed to =
maintain archive permalinks so that content of historic importance is not l=
ost. Fortunately for us while <a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org">=
lists.linuxfoundation.org</a> mailman will go down, they have agreed the re=
ad-only pipermail archives will remain online. So all old URLs will continu=
e to remain valid. However, the moderators strongly advise that the communi=
ty supplements with public-inbox instances to have canonical archive urls t=
hat are separate from any particular email software host.<br><br>Public-Inb=
ox<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br><a href=3D"https://public=
-inbox.org/README.html">https://public-inbox.org/README.html</a><br><br>=E2=
=80=9CPublic Inbox=E2=80=9D decentralized archiving - no matter what mailin=
g list server solution is used, anyone can use git to maintain their own ma=
iling list archive and make it available to read on the web.<br><br>Public =
Inbox is a tool that you can run yourself. You can transform your mbox file=
 and it makes it browsable and viewable online. It commits every post to a =
git repository. It&#39;s kind of like a decentralized mail archiving tool. =
Anyone can publish the mail archive to any web server they wish.<br><br>We =
should try to have one or more canonical archives that are served using pub=
lic-inbox. But it doesn&#39;t matter if these are lost because anyone else =
can archive the mailing list in the same way and re-publish the archives.<b=
r><br>These git commits can also be stamped using opentimestamps, inserting=
 their hashes into the bitcoin blockchain.<br><br>LKML mailing list readers=
 often use public-inbox&#39;s web interface, and they use the reply-to head=
ers to populate their mail client and reply to threads of interest. This al=
lows their reply to be properly threaded even if they were not a previous s=
ubscriber to that mailing list to receive the headers.<br><br>public-inbox =
makes it so that it doesn&#39;t really matter where the list is hosted, as =
pertaining to reading the mailing list. There is still a disruption if the =
mailing list goes away, but the archives live on and then people can post e=
lsewhere. The archive gets disconnected from the mailing list host in terms=
 of posting. We could have a few canonical URLs for the hosts, separate fro=
m the mailing list server.<br><br>mailman problems<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Over the years we have identified a numb=
er of problems with mailman2 especially as it pertains to content moderatio=
n. There are presently a handful of different moderators, but mailman2 only=
 has a single password for logging into the email management interface. The=
re are no moderator audit logs to see which user (there is no concept of di=
fferent users) acted on an email. There is no way to mark an email as being=
 investigated by one or more of the moderators. Sometimes, while investigat=
ing the veracity of an email, another moderator would come in and approve a=
 suspect email by accident.<br><br>Anti spam has been an issue for the mode=
rators. It&#39;s relentless. Without access to the underlying server, it ha=
s been difficult to fight spam. There is some support for filters in mailma=
n2 but it&#39;s not great.<br><br>100% active moderation and approval of ev=
ery email is unsustainable for volunteer moderators. A system that requires=
 moderation is a heavy burden on the moderators and it slows down overall c=
ommunication and productivity. There&#39;s lots of problems with this. Also=
, moderators can be blamed when they are merely slow while they are not act=
ually censoring.<br><br>Rejection emails can optionally be sent to <a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists.ozlabs.org">bitcoin-dev-moderation@=
lists.ozlabs.org</a> but this is an option that a moderator has to remember=
 to type in each time.<br><br>Not to mention numerous bugs and vulnerabilit=
ies that have accumulated over the years for relatively unmaintained softwa=
re. (Not disclosed here)<br><br>Requirements and considerations<br>=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Looking towards the future, there are a number of prope=
rties that seem to be important for the bitcoin-dev mailing list community.=
 First, it is important that backups of the entire archive should be easy f=
or the public to copy or verify so that the system can be brought up elsewh=
ere if necessary.<br><br>Second, there seems to be demand for both an email=
 threading interface (using mailing list software) as well as web-accessibl=
e interfaces (such as forum software). There seems to be very few options t=
hat cater to both email and web. Often, in forum software, email support is=
 limited to email notifications and there is limited if any support for ema=
il user participation.<br><br>Third, there should be better support for mod=
erator tools and management of the mailing list. See above for complaints a=
bout problems with the mailman2 system.<br><br>Burdens of running your own =
mailing list and email server<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>If you have n=
ever operated your own MTA you have no idea how difficult it is to keep sec=
ure and functional in the face of numerous challenges to deliverability. An=
ti-spam filtering is essential to prevent forwarding spam. The moment you f=
orward even a single spam message you run the risk of the server IP address=
 being added to blacklists.<br><br>The problem of spam filtering is so bad =
that most IP addresses are presumed guilty even if they have no prior spam =
history, such as if their network or subnetwork had spam issues in the past=
.<br><br>Even if you put unlimited time into managing your own email server=
, other people may not accept your email. Or you make one mistake, and then=
 you get into permanent blacklists and it&#39;s hard to remove. The spam pr=
oblem is so bad that most IPs are automatically on a guilty-until-proven-in=
nocent blacklist.<br><br>Often there is nothing you can do to get server IP=
 addresses removed from spam blacklists or from &quot;bad reputation&quot; =
lists.<br><br>Ironically, hashcash-style proof-of-work stamps to prevent sp=
am are an appealing solution but not widely used in this community. Or anyw=
here.<br><br>Infinite rejection or forwarding loops happen. They often need=
 to be detected through vigilance and require manual sysadmin intervention =
to solve.<br><br>Bitcoin&#39;s dev lists being hosted alongside other Open =
Source projects was previously protective. If that mailing list server beca=
me blacklisted there were a lot of other people who would notice and compla=
in. If we run a Bitcoin-specific mail server we are on our own. 100% of the=
 administrative burden falls upon our own people. There is also nothing we =
can do if some unknown admin decides they don&#39;t like us.<br><br>Options=
<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Web forums are an interesting option, but =
often don&#39;t have good email user integration. At most you can usually h=
ope for email notifications and an ability to reply by email. It changes th=
e model of the community from push (email) to pull (logging into a forum to=
 read). RSS feeds can help a little bit.<br><br>Many other projects have mo=
ved from mailing lists to forums (eg <a href=3D"https://discuss.python.org/=
">https://discuss.python.org/</a> =E2=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://lwn.net/=
Articles/901744/">https://lwn.net/Articles/901744/</a> ; or <a href=3D"http=
s://ethresear.ch/">https://ethresear.ch/</a>), which seem easier to maintai=
n and moderate, and can have lots of advanced features beyond plaintext, ma=
ybe-threading and maybe-HTML-markup.<br><br>Who would host the forum? Would=
 there be agreement around which forum software to use or which forum host?=
 What about <a href=3D"http://bitcointalk.org">bitcointalk.org</a> or <a hr=
ef=3D"http://delvingbitcoin.org">delvingbitcoin.org</a>? There are many opt=
ions available. Maybe what we actually want isn=E2=80=99t so much a discuss=
ion forum, as an &#39;arxiv of our own&#39; where anons can post BIP drafts=
 and the like?<br><br>Given the problems with mailman2, and the decline of =
email communities in general, it seems that moving to mailman3 would not be=
 a viable long-term option. This leaves us with Google Groups or <a href=3D=
"http://groups.io">groups.io</a> as two remaining options.<br><br><a href=
=3D"http://groups.io">groups.io</a> is an interesting option: they are a pa=
id service that implements email communities along with online web forum su=
pport. However, their public changelog indicates it has been a few years si=
nce their last public change. They might be a smaller company and it is unc=
lear how long they will be around or if this would be the right fit for hos=
ting sometimes contentious bitcoin development discussions...<br><br>Google=
 Groups is another interesting option, and comes with different tradeoffs. =
It&#39;s the lowest effort to maintain option, and has both an email interf=
ace and web forum interface. Users can choose which mode they want to inter=
act with.<br><br>For the Google Groups web interface, you can use it with a=
 non-gmail account, but you must create a Google Account which is free to d=
o. it does not require any personal information to do so. This also allows =
you to add 2FA. Non-gmail non-google users are able to subscribe and post e=
mail from their non-gmail non-google email accounts. Tor seems to work for =
the web interface. <br><br>Will Google shut it down, will they cut us off, =
will they shut down non-google users? The same problem exists with other th=
ird-party hosts.<br><br>The moderation capabilities for Google Groups and <=
a href=3D"http://groups.io">groups.io</a> seem to be comparable. It seems m=
ore likely that Google Groups will be able to handle email delivery issues =
far better than a small resource-constrained operation like <a href=3D"http=
://groups.io">groups.io</a>. ((During feedback for this draft, luke-jr indi=
cates that Google Workspaces has been known to use blacklisted IPs for busi=
ness email!))<br><br>On the other hand, <a href=3D"http://groups.io">groups=
.io</a> is a paid service and you get what you pay for... hopefully?<br><br=
>Finally, another option is to do literally nothing. It&#39;s less work ove=
rall. Users can switch to forums or other websites, or private one-on-one c=
ommunication. It would remove a point of semi-centralization from the bitco=
in ecosystem. It would hasten ossification, but on the other hand it would =
hasten ossification and this could be a negative too. Moderators would be l=
ess of a target.<br><br>Unfortunately, by doing nothing, there would be no =
more widely used group email communication system between bitcoin developer=
s. Developers become less coordinated, mayhem and chaos as people go to dif=
ferent communication platforms, a divided community is more vulnerable, etc=
. BIP1 and BIP2 would need to be revised for other venues.<br><br>The main =
categories of what to move to are: web forums, mailing lists, and hybrids o=
f those two options. Most everything is either self-hosted or you pay someo=
ne else to host it. It&#39;s kind of the same problem though. It largely de=
pends on how good is the software and unfortunately running your own MTA th=
at forwards mail is not a good option.<br><br>Going forward<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>We&#39;d like to invite feedback and proposals=
 from the community, and see what options are available. One potential opti=
on is a migration to Google Groups, but we&#39;re open to ideas at this poi=
nt. We apologize for any inconvenience this disruption has caused.<br><br><=
br>Bitcoin-dev mailing list moderation team<br><br>Bryan Bishop<br>Ruben So=
msen<br>Warren Togami<br>various others.<br><div><br></div><span class=3D"g=
mail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signat=
ure" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">- Bryan<br><a href=
=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/kanz=
ure</a></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000fa4a75060991bff2--