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Message-ID: <01f49d64-838e-4311-bf79-8c4130b40c8e@mattcorallo.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:51:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
To: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
References: <a86c2737-db79-4f54-9c1d-51beeb765163n@googlegroups.com>
<6f78b702-4bd0-4aa4-ac51-b881d8df9f01@mattcorallo.com>
<CAPfvXf+t33u1ghz39cqYn4k5ErmxTkUv0njF9Zwbz_2UkdTjAg@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>
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On 6/9/25 10:43 AM, James O'Beirne wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 9:51=E2=80=AFAM Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo=
.com <mailto:lf-=20
> lists@mattcorallo.com>> wrote:
> > That said, I have yet to see a reasoned explanation of why we should p=
refer CTV over TXHASH.
>=20
> From the author of TXHASH himself on Delving Bitcoin
> (https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-csfs-can-we-reach-consensus-on-a-first-=
step-towards-=20
> covenants/1509/15 <https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-csfs-can-we-reach-con=
sensus-on-a-first-step-=20
> towards-covenants/1509/15>):
>=20
> >=C2=A0Having implemented TXHASH, I would definitely not say that
> > it =E2=80=9Csimplifies the change=E2=80=9D.
Who claimed TXHASH is simpler than CTV?
> > The difference in both technical debt and
> > potential for bugs is an order of magnitude bigger for TXHASH than for
> > CTV.
I mean, sure, compared to something trivial doing something marginally-triv=
ial has a lot bigger=20
surface area. But that isn't really an argument unless we're talking about =
something truly=20
complicated, and TXHASH absolutely is not.
> > (Not to say that I don=E2=80=99t think TXHASH would be worthwhile, but=
I
> > will definitely say that it has not received the attention I had expec=
ted,
> > so I would definitely not want to put it on the table anytime soon.)
I mean there's still debate around the exact format of CTV commitments (eg =
whether it commits to=20
scriptSigs, if it works outside of segwit, etc), saying that there's debate=
over the format of=20
TXHASH isn't exactly a compelling argument either? Yes, it needs some work,=
but the time we'll=20
invest in CTV isn't all that different from the time we'll invest in TXHASH=
, once we pick a direction.
> The use-cases that might merit such a jump up in complexity over CTV
> have not been enumerated to my knowledge.
This is a much better argument :). I'm a bit skeptical, though, that its qu=
ite this cut-and-dry. For=20
example, the utter hack of the BitVM-with-CTV variant pretty clearly points=
to us needing a more=20
fully featured commitment gadget to enable these things without the nonsens=
e they had to resort to.
Further, we should think at least somewhat about what we think a reasonable=
end state is. As far as=20
I understand, most proponents of CTV+CSFS do not think that CTV+CSFS is *al=
l* we want, but rather a=20
first step towards some goal. If that goal includes more flexible tx field =
commitments (I imagine it=20
certainly does!) then we should do that, rather than taking a detour we sho=
uld make progress towards=20
the eventual goal!
> CTV also includes
> upgrade hooks to incorporate modifications should these additional
> uses be more fully understood.
I do not understand why people make this argument. Yes, the encoding of the=
opcode allows you to=20
turn it into an OP_NOP (or SUCCESS or whatever), that doesn't make it "upgr=
ade hook"-friendly. If we=20
think that we just want to do CTV but we want CTV to be upgradable later to=
be TXHASH, then we first=20
need to define the TXHASH hash and bitfield format, so that we can take the=
subset of it that=20
captures CTV and hard-code that. But, of course, if we do that work we shou=
ld clearly do TXHASH :).
These really feel like the same arguments again and again. I just don't fin=
d them even remotely=20
compelling. "Oh, well, if we want to figure out TXHASH someone would have t=
o define a bitfield=20
format and that will take years" is just nonsense. Hell, its already done! =
Maybe we want to tweak=20
it, but honestly bikeshedding over a specific bitfield format sounds like i=
t'll take a hell of a lot=20
less time than trying to make sure we work out all the cases for what someo=
ne might want to commit=20
to that we want them to commit to but not more and fix a specific set of co=
mmitments!
Matt
--=20
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