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To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
From: josibake <josibake@protonmail.com>
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Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP-352 Silent Payments addresses should have an
	expiration time
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the feedback! As you mentioned, this is a more general problem =
in Bitcoin and not specific to BIP352. Therefore, if expiration dates are =
indeed something we want, they should be proposed and discussed as their o=
wn BIP and be a standard that can work for xpubs, static payment codes, as=
 well as existing and future address formats. If that were to happen, it w=
ould be easy enough to add this expiration standard to silent payments as =
a new silent payments address version.

That being said, I'm a bit skeptical in general of expiration dates and th=
ink that they weaken the value proposition of silent payments while not ac=
tually solving the problems you described. Consider the following scenario=
s:

1. Bob's wallet is compromised with a one-year expiry and for the next yea=
r, funds are sent to the attacker. The attacker may have the ability to up=
date the expiration, and thus be able to keep receiving funds as Bob.
2. Bob loses his keys with a one-year expiry but finds them again 3 years =
later. The expiration causes Bob to miss out on 2 years worth of potential=
 payments.
3. Bob dies with a one-year expiry but an heir inherits his backups severa=
l years down the road. The expiration date causes the heir to miss out on =
several years worth of potential payments.
4. Bob is prevented from updating his address for several years but retain=
s access to his keys/backups. The expiration date causes Bob to miss out o=
n several years worth of potential payments.
5. Bob regularly updates his address with a new expiry, but not all sender=
s are able to find the new, updated address causing Bob to miss out on pot=
ential payments.
6. By updating his address, Bob is leaking metadata about himself, potenti=
ally compromising his safety.

You could argue that none of the scenarios above would be an issue if Bob =
just sets a very long expiry, but then the expiry doesn't really help in s=
olving the issues you mentioned. What we really want is a way for Bob to r=
evoke his silent payment address. For this, I think building a wallet prot=
ocol on top of silent payments is a better path to explore. Additionally, =
expiration dates as proposed degrade the privacy of silent payments: any o=
utside observer can conclude that all transactions mined at block height N=
 or greater were not payments to any silent payment address with an expiry=
 less than N. As I mentioned already, there may also be privacy and safety=
 concerns with the user needing to regularly update their silent payment a=
ddress expiration date.

Lastly, on the subject of expiration dates in general, your proposed solut=
ion is not enforceable: any wallet can just ignore the extra bytes and sen=
d to the address/xpub/static payment code, anyways. For expiration dates t=
o be useful, I'd argue they need to be enforced by consensus (which I am n=
ot convinced is a good idea).

In summary, expiration dates are a separate problem, outside the scope of =
what BIP352 is trying to address. If we can work toward a more general sol=
ution, there is nothing preventing us from adding this to a future silent =
payments version, but even then, I'm still not convinced expiration dates =
for static payment codes is a good idea, for the reasons I mentioned above=
.

Cheers,
Josie


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, August 4th, 2023 at 7:39 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:


> tl;dr: Wallets don't last forever. They are often compromised or lost. W=
hen
> this happens, the addresses generated from those wallets become a form o=
f toxic
> data: funds sent to those addresses can be easily lost forever.
> =


> All Bitcoin addresses have this problem. But at least existing Bitcoin
> addresses aren't supposed to be reused. Silent Payments are: the whole p=
oint is
> to have a single address that you can safely pay to multiple times, with=
out
> privacy concerns. Failing to make Silent Payment addresses eventually ex=
pire in
> a reasonable amount of time is thus a particularly harmful mistake.
> =


> Fixing this is easy: add a 3 byte field to silent payments addresses, en=
coding
> the expiration date in terms of days after some epoch. 2^24 days is 45,0=
00
> years, more than enough. Indeed, 2 bytes is probably fine too: 2^16 days=
 is 180
> years. We'll be lucky if Bitcoin still exists in 180 years.
> =


> Wallets should pick a reasonable default, eg 1 year, for newly created
> addresses. Attempts to pay an expired address should just fail with a si=
mple
> "address expired". Lightning invoices are a good example here: while inv=
oices
> does not require expiration from a technical point of view, they do expi=
re for
> similar UX reasons as applies to silent payments.
> =


> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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