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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "Bitcoin codebase is actually really
simple and readable."
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--1477594544-919628246-1382540527=:4044
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "bitcoin-development-=
request@lists.sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourcefor=
ge.net>=0ATo: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net =0ASent: Wednesday,=
October 23, 2013 3:38 AM=0ASubject: Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 29, Is=
sue 20=0A =0A=0ASend Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to=0A=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=0AWhen replying, =
please edit your Subject line so it is more specific=0Athan "Re: Contents o=
f Bitcoin-development digest..."=0AToday's Topics:=0A=C2=A0 2. Re: Revisit=
ing the BIPS process, a proposal (Peter Todd)=0A---------------------------=
-------------------------------------------=0A....=0A=0AOn Tue, Oct 22, 201=
3 at 09:34:57AM +0200, Martin Sustrik wrote:=0A> On 22/10/13 09:03, Gregory=
Maxwell wrote:=0A> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman=
=0A> > <jeanpaulkogelman@me.com> wrote:=0A> >> Have you seen: https://en.bi=
tcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification ?=0A> >=0A> > Take care, the informati=
on in the wiki is woefully incomplete.=0A> =0A> Imagine myself, with no pri=
or knowledge of Bitcoin looking at the =0A> document. It starts with "Hashe=
s". What hashes? No idea what's going on. =0A> Etc.=0A> =0A> Now compare th=
at to a well written RFC. It starts with introduction, =0A> description of =
the problem, explains the conceptual model of the =0A> solution, then dives=
into the details. There's also Security =0A> Considerations part in every =
RFC that is pretty relevant for Bitcoin.=0A> =0A> As I said, I am willing t=
o help with writing such document, it would be =0A> a nice way of learning =
the stuff, however, help from core devs, such as =0A> answering question th=
at may arise in the process, or reviewing the =0A> document would be needed=
.=0A=0AWriting such RFCs is dangerous due to the consensus nature of Bitcoi=
n -=0Ait makes people think the standard is the RFC, rather than the code.=
=0A=0AI hear one of the better intros to Bitcoin is the Khan academy videos=
,=0Abut I've never watched them myself. Once you understand how it works,=
=0Astart reading source code - the Bitcoin codebase is actually really=0Asi=
mple and readable. However remember that the implications of that=0Acodebas=
e are anything but simple; there's lots of reasons to think=0ASatoshi himse=
lf didn't understand Bitcoin all that well, even by the=0Atime he left the =
project.=0A=0A-- =0A'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org=0A000000000000000f155e7a648e=
84a83589048ae1cacb0c60bfce2437553b6af4=0A-------------- next part ---------=
-----=0AA non-text attachment was scrubbed...=0AName: not available=0AType:=
application/pgp-signature=0ASize: 685 bytes=0ADesc: Digital signature=0A=
=0A------------------------------=0AI feel that I must respond to the state=
ments that =0A1.=0Athe Bitcoin codebase is actually really=0Asimple and rea=
dable. =0A=0A2.=0AHowever remember that the implications of that=0Acodebase=
are anything but simple; there's lots of reasons to think=0ASatoshi himsel=
f didn't understand Bitcoin all that well, even by the=0Atime he left the p=
roject.=0A=0AOn point one: if it was/is so readable, why hasn't it been doc=
umented better, if at all? =0AWhy haven't the obscure names of important it=
ems been globally searched and replaced?=0AWhy are there still mixed format=
ting "styles" still in the code. I think it is the fear that C++ =0Ais so b=
rittle, that one change may bring the whole house of cards down.=0AI feel t=
hat it is the language (C++) that is hindering the expression of ideas in t=
he code.=0AThis goes to your point two about Satoshi's understanding. I thi=
nk just the opposite:=0Athat he knew what he wanted but that C++ hindered h=
im in expressing and implementing it.=0AI think that if anything, C++ was w=
hat Satoshi "didn't understand all that well".=0A=0ABut then who does under=
stand C++, really? See=0Ahttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.li=
sp/7xCvdzijzgU/4xCFzLc3d5EJ =0Aand the quote:=0AWhenever I solve a difficul=
t problem with C++, I feel like I=E2=80=99ve won a bar fight. =E2=80=94 Mic=
hael Fogus=0A=0AI don't think readability is attainable easily in C++. It r=
equires intentionally writing so that =0Aothers may understand your code. H=
ow many programmers have ever done that? And this =0Ais like swimming upstr=
eam in C++, where things are designed to be hidden! =0A=0ARon=0A
--1477594544-919628246-1382540527=:4044
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Co=
urier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><spa=
n><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style=3D"font-family: Courier New,=
courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style=3D"f=
ont-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande,=
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1"> <font fa=
ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span><=
/b> "bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-develop=
ment-request@lists.sourceforge.net><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: b=
old;">To:</span></b> bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <br> <b><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 23, 2013=
3:38 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Bitc=
oin-development Digest, Vol 29, Issue 20<br> </font> </div> <div
class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submis=
sions to<br> <a ymailto=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lis=
ts.sourceforge.net" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.ne=
t">bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>When replying, please e=
dit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Bitco=
in-development digest..."<br>Today's Topics:<br> 2. Re: Revisiting t=
he BIPS process, a proposal (Peter Todd)<br>-------------------------------=
---------------------------------------<br>....<br><br>On Tue, Oct 22, 2013=
at 09:34:57AM +0200, Martin Sustrik wrote:<br>> On 22/10/13 09:03, Greg=
ory Maxwell wrote:<br>> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Jean-Paul=
Kogelman<br>> > <<a ymailto=3D"mailto:jeanpaulkogelman@me.com" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jeanpaulkogelman@me.com">jeanpaulkogelman@me.com</a>> wrote=
:<br>> >> Have you seen: <a
href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification </a>?<br>> ><br>=
> > Take care, the information in the wiki is woefully incomplete.<br=
>> <br>> Imagine myself, with no prior knowledge of Bitcoin looking a=
t the <br>> document. It starts with "Hashes". What hashes? No idea what=
's going on. <br>> Etc.<br>> <br>> Now compare that to a well writ=
ten RFC. It starts with introduction, <br>> description of the problem, =
explains the conceptual model of the <br>> solution, then dives into the=
details. There's also Security <br>> Considerations part in every RFC t=
hat is pretty relevant for Bitcoin.<br>> <br>> As I said, I am willin=
g to help with writing such document, it would be <br>> a nice way of le=
arning the stuff, however, help from core devs, such as <br>> answering =
question that may arise in the process, or reviewing the <br>>
document would be needed.<br><br>Writing such RFCs is dangerous due to the=
consensus nature of Bitcoin -<br>it makes people think the standard is the=
RFC, rather than the code.<br><br>I hear one of the better intros to Bitco=
in is the Khan academy videos,<br>but I've never watched them myself. Once =
you understand how it works,<br>start reading source code - the Bitcoin cod=
ebase is actually really<br>simple and readable. However remember that the =
implications of that<br>codebase are anything but simple; there's lots of r=
easons to think<br>Satoshi himself didn't understand Bitcoin all that well,=
even by the<br>time he left the project.<br><br>-- <br>'peter'[:-1]@petert=
odd.org<br>000000000000000f155e7a648e84a83589048ae1cacb0c60bfce2437553b6af4=
<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>A non-text attachment was sc=
rubbed...<br>Name: not available<br>Type: application/pgp-signature<br>Size=
: 685 bytes<br>Desc: Digital
signature<br><br>------------------------------<br>I feel that I must resp=
ond to the statements that <br>1.<br>the Bitcoin codebase is actually reall=
y<br>simple and readable. <br><br>2.<br>However remember that the implicati=
ons of that<br>codebase are anything but simple; there's lots of reasons to=
think<br>Satoshi himself didn't understand Bitcoin all that well, even by =
the<br>time he left the project.<br><br>On point one: if it was/is so reada=
ble, why hasn't it been documented better, if at all? <br>Why haven't the o=
bscure names of important items been globally searched and replaced?<br>Why=
are there still mixed formatting "styles" still in the code. I think it is=
the fear that C++ <br>is so brittle, that one change may bring the whole h=
ouse of cards down.<br>I feel that it is the language (C++) that is hinderi=
ng the expression of ideas in the code.<br>This goes to your point two abou=
t Satoshi's understanding. I think just the opposite:<br>that he
knew what he wanted but that C++ hindered him in expressing and implementi=
ng it.<br>I think that if anything, C++ was what Satoshi "didn't understand=
all that well".<br><br>But then who does understand C++, really? See<br>ht=
tps://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/7xCvdzijzgU/4xCFzLc3d5EJ=
<br>and the quote:<br><em>Whenever I solve a difficult problem with C++, I=
feel like I=E2=80=99ve won a bar fight.</em> =E2=80=94 Michael Fogus<br><b=
r>I don't think readability is attainable easily in C++. It requires intent=
ionally writing so that <br>others may understand your code. How many progr=
ammers have ever done that? And this <br>is like swimming upstream in C++, =
where things are designed to be hidden! <br><br>Ron<br></div> </div> </div>=
</div></body></html>
--1477594544-919628246-1382540527=:4044--
|
