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To: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
	Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone>
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	<CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
 wordlists
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That's the point indeed and the scope is wider than XYZIP-39, even if
what I mean is the very contrary of your point (really bitcoin is
reserved to an elite understanding english/ascii letters?)

This proposal is tailor made for Trezor and does not simplify anything
for people, that's the contrary again

As I suggested in another response to this thread (which was moderated
due probably to some uninteresting parts of the discussion) it's time to
take a break and really make a survey worldwide of what people need,
what they understand and what they need to secure their coins, nobody
has any feedback about this (and maybe does not even care)

Wallets created a big mess implementing non standard things (or things
they thought standard but that are not), or things not intended for the
final use, or things that people can't understand, it's time to correct
this, unless wallets want to keep people tied forever to them (when I
read Trezor or other wallets docs, it's quite misleading, "sending coins
to your wallet", what does it mean? Nothing, and people think it means
something, this should stop now)

And again, I don't see the point of wordlist (in addition in a language
that they don't understand) compared to backing up a 32B hex string
(that you can encrypt different ways at different places), assuming that
the hex format can be made available in all languages

"yet I would not advise users to use a wordlist that might not have
support across multiple wallet implementations, resulting in lock-in or
worse"--> this single sentence shows how the whole model is wrong and
how you think that you can lock people

Le 08/01/2018 à 15:54, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com
> <mailto:ematiu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev
>     <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>         Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>
>
>
>     Copay (and all its clones) use it. 
>
>
>
>      
>
>
>         If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in
>         years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems
>         indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place,
>         since it's a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can't
>         even read English letters when almost all documentation is
>         written in English.
>
>         On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev
>         <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>         <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>             On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな
>             <kinoshitajona@gmail.com <mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com>>
>             wrote:
>
>                 This is very sad.
>
>                 The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is
>                 with English words.
>
>                 I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down
>                 his phrase (because he kept on failing recovery), and
>                 watched him write down "aneter" for "amateur"...
>
>                 [...]
>
>                 If you understand English and can spell, you read a
>                 word, your brain processes the word, and you can spell
>                 it on your own when writing down.  Not many Japanese
>                 people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>                 letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on
>                 occasion.
>
>                 [...]
>
>                 Defining "everyone should only use English, because
>                 ASCII is easier to plan for" is not a good way to move
>                 forward as a currency.
>
>
>             Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences. 
>             Now please, let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
>
>             I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic
>             standard to entrust *their own money* to their abilities
>             to very, very carefully write this down—then later, type
>             it back in:
>
>             すさん　たんろ　りゆう　しもん　ていおん　しとう
>             とこや　はやい　おうさま　ほくろ　けちゃっふ　たもつ
>
>             (Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if
>             Bitcoin had been invented by somebody named Satoshi
>             Nakamoto?”)
>
>             No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are
>             probably talking about a Trezor; so now, hey you there,
>             stake the backup of your life’s savings on your ability to
>             handwrite *this*:
>
>             にあう　しひょう　にんすう　ひえる　かいこう　いのる　ねんし　はあさん　ひこく
>             とうく　きもためし　そなた　こなこな　にさんかたんそ　ろんき　めいあん　みわく
>             へこむ　すひょう　おやゆひ　ふせく　けさき　めいきょく　こんまけ
>
>             Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in
>             your own hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that
>             others risk *their* money on the inverse case.
>
>             ----
>
>             If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then
>             remember that many Japanese people know English and other
>             European languages, too.  Then think of how much money
>             would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>             friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your
>             folks needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their
>             “mnemonics”.
>
>             In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at
>             all.  A “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a
>             wholly alien writing system is much worse even than
>             transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The Japanese man
>             in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was
>             not dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s
>             most inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less*
>             userfriendly.
>
>             ----
>
>             I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語”
>             an appropriate string for identifying the Japanese
>             language to Japanese users?  And what of the other strings
>             I posted for other languages?
>
>             I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance
>             of the greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale
>             software:  Independent implementations.  —  I asked,
>             because obviously, I myself do not speak all these
>             different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>
>             Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but
>             thus far, nobody has squarely addressed the substance of
>             my question.
>
>             Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered
>             into criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a
>             question about other languages, and I am getting replies
>             which raise a hue and cry of “English only!”
>
>             Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am
>             uninterested in ever implementing any standard of this
>             nature which is artificially restricted to English.  I am
>             fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>             called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and
>             four more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493,
>             #621).
>
>             I request discussion of language identification strings
>             appropriate for use with that standard.
>
>             (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in
>             the foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess
>             up decomposed characters.  I thought of this after I
>             searched for and collected some visually fascinating
>             phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It
>             should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese
>             perfectly!)
>
>
>             -- 
>             nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC:
>             0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
>             Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h |
>             (Segwit nested:
>             3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA:
>             0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>             “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to
>             hide.’
>             No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.”
>             — nullius
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             bitcoin-dev mailing list
>             bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>             <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>             https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>             <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         bitcoin-dev mailing list
>         bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>         <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>         https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>         <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Matías Alejo Garcia
>     @ematiu
>     Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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    <p>That's the point indeed and the scope is wider than XYZIP-39,
      even if what I mean is the very contrary of your point (really
      bitcoin is reserved to an elite understanding english/ascii
      letters?)<br>
    </p>
    <p>This proposal is tailor made for Trezor and does not simplify
      anything for people, that's the contrary again<br>
    </p>
    <p>As I suggested in another response to this thread (which was
      moderated due probably to some uninteresting parts of the
      discussion) it's time to take a break and really make a survey
      worldwide of what people need, what they understand and what they
      need to secure their coins, nobody has any feedback about this
      (and maybe does not even care)<br>
    </p>
    <p>Wallets created a big mess implementing non standard things (or
      things they thought standard but that are not), or things not
      intended for the final use, or things that people can't
      understand, it's time to correct this, unless wallets want to keep
      people tied forever to them (when I read Trezor or other wallets
      docs, it's quite misleading, "sending coins to your wallet", what
      does it mean? Nothing, and people think it means something, this
      should stop now)</p>
    <p>And again, I don't see the point of wordlist (in addition in a
      language that they don't understand) compared to backing up a 32B
      hex string (that you can encrypt different ways at different
      places), assuming that the hex format can be made available in all
      languages</p>
    <p>"yet I would not advise users to use a wordlist that might not
      have support across multiple wallet implementations, resulting in
      lock-in or worse"--&gt; this single sentence shows how the whole
      model is wrong and how you think that you can lock people<span
        style="font-size:12.8px"></span></p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 08/01/2018 à 15:54, Greg Sanders via
      bitcoin-dev a écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to
        actually use it?</div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias
          Alejo Garcia <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              href="mailto:ematiu@gmail.com" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">ematiu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr"><br>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                <div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Mon, Jan 8,
                    2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <span
                      dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                        href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </span><span class="">
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>Has anyone actually used the multilingual
                          support in bip39?<br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                  </span>
                  <div>Copay (and all its clones) use it. </div>
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>If a feature of the standard has not
                            been(widely?) used in years, and isn't
                            supported in any major wallet(?), it seems
                            indicative it was a mistake to add it in the
                            first place, since it's a footgun in the
                            making for some poor sap who can't even read
                            English letters when almost all
                            documentation is written in English.</div>
                        </div>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">
                            <div>
                              <div class="m_7015119369442535395h5">On
                                Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via
                                bitcoin-dev <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span>
                                wrote:<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                              style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                              #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                              <div>
                                <div class="m_7015119369442535395h5"><span>On
                                    2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな
                                    &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">kinoshitajona@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </span>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0 0 0
                                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                    solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
                                      This is very sad.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      The number one problem in Japan
                                      with BIP39 seeds is with English
                                      words.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      I have seen a 60 year old Japanese
                                      man writing down his phrase
                                      (because he kept on failing
                                      recovery), and watched him write
                                      down "aneter" for "amateur"...<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </span>
                                    [...]<span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      If you understand English and can
                                      spell, you read a word, your brain
                                      processes the word, and you can
                                      spell it on your own when writing
                                      down.  Not many Japanese people
                                      can do that, so they need to copy
                                      letter for letter, taking a long
                                      time, and still messing up on
                                      occasion.<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </span>
                                    [...]<span><br>
                                      <br>
                                      Defining "everyone should only use
                                      English, because ASCII is easier
                                      to plan for" is not a good way to
                                      move forward as a currency.<br>
                                    </span></blockquote>
                                  <br>
                                  Well said.  Thank you for telling of
                                  these experiences.  Now please, let’s
                                  put the shoe on the other foot.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I ask everybody who wants an
                                  English-only mnemonic standard to
                                  entrust *their own money* to their
                                  abilities to very, very carefully
                                  write this down—then later, type it
                                  back in:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  すさん　たんろ　りゆう　しもん　ていおん　しとう<br>
                                  とこや　はやい　おうさま　ほくろ　けちゃっふ　たもつ<br>
                                  <br>
                                  (Approximate translation:  “Whatever
                                  would you do if Bitcoin had been
                                  invented by somebody named Satoshi
                                  Nakamoto?”)<br>
                                  <br>
                                  No, wait:  That is only a 12-word
                                  mnemonic.  We are probably talking
                                  about a Trezor; so now, hey you there,
                                  stake the backup of your life’s
                                  savings on your ability to handwrite
                                  *this*:<br>
                                  <br>
にあう　しひょう　にんすう　ひえる　かいこう　いのる　ねんし　はあさん　ひこく<br>
とうく　きもためし　そなた　こなこな　にさんかたんそ　ろんき　めいあん　みわく<br>
                                  へこむ　すひょう　おやゆひ　ふせく　けさき　めいきょく　こんまけ<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Ready to bet your money on *that* as a
                                  backup phrase in your own hands?  No? 
                                  Then please, stop demanding that
                                  others risk *their* money on the
                                  inverse case.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  ----<br>
                                  <br>
                                  If you cheat here by having studied
                                  Japanese, then remember that many
                                  Japanese people know English and other
                                  European languages, too.  Then think
                                  of how much money would be lost by
                                  your non-Japanese-literate family and
                                  friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese
                                  wordlists, and your folks needed to
                                  wrestle with the above phrases as
                                  their “mnemonics”.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  In such cases, the phrases cannot be
                                  called “mnemonics” at all.  A
                                  “mnemonic” implies aid to memory. 
                                  Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
                                  system is much worse even than
                                  transcribing pseudorandom hex
                                  strings.  The Japanese man in the
                                  quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for
                                  “amateur”, was not dealing with a
                                  *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s
                                  most inefficient means of making
                                  cryptic bitstrings *less*
                                  userfriendly.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  ----<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I began this thread with a quite
                                  simple request:  Is “日本語” an
                                  appropriate string for identifying the
                                  Japanese language to Japanese users? 
                                  And what of the other strings I posted
                                  for other languages?<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I asked this as an implementer working
                                  on my own instance of the greatest
                                  guard against vendor lock-in and stale
                                  software:  Independent
                                  implementations.  —  I asked, because
                                  obviously, I myself do not speak all
                                  these different languages; and I want
                                  to implement them all.  *All.*<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Some replies have been interesting in
                                  their own right; but thus far, nobody
                                  has squarely addressed the substance
                                  of my question.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Most worrisome is that much of the
                                  discussion has veered into criticism
                                  of multi-language support.  I opened
                                  with a question about other languages,
                                  and I am getting replies which raise a
                                  hue and cry of “English only!”<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Though I am fluent and literate in
                                  English, I am uninterested in ever
                                  implementing any standard of this
                                  nature which is artificially
                                  restricted to English.  I am
                                  fortunate; for as of this moment, we
                                  have a standard called “BIP 39” which
                                  has seven non-English wordlists, and
                                  four more pending in open pull
                                  requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br>
                                  <br>
                                  I request discussion of language
                                  identification strings appropriate for
                                  use with that standard.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  (P.S., I hope that my system did not
                                  mangle anything in the foregoing.  I
                                  have seen weird copypaste behaviour
                                  mess up decomposed characters.  I
                                  thought of this after I searched for
                                  and collected some visually
                                  fascinating phrases; so I tried to
                                  normalize these to NFC...  It should
                                  go without saying, easyseed output the
                                  Japanese perfectly!)
                                  <div
                                    class="m_7015119369442535395m_-6034384190307218273HOEnZb">
                                    <div
                                      class="m_7015119369442535395m_-6034384190307218273h5"><br>
                                      <br>
                                      -- <br>
                                      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nullius@nym.zone">nullius@nym.zone</a> | PGP ECC:
                                      0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C<br>
                                      Bitcoin:
                                      bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h
                                      | (Segwit nested:<br>
                                      3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG) 
                                      (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)<br>
                                      “‘If you’re not doing anything
                                      wrong, you have nothing to hide.’<br>
                                      No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I
                                      have nothing to show.” — nullius<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
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                <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    -- <br>
                    <div class="m_7015119369442535395gmail_signature"
                      data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                      <div dir="ltr">Matías Alejo Garcia<br>
                        @ematiu<br>
                        Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!</div>
                    </div>
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    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Bitcoin transactions made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions</a>
Zcash wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/getblocklist">http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/findmyass">http://peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://torrent-live.org">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms">https://www.github.com/Ayms</a></pre>
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