1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
|
Return-Path: <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909DCC002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 2 Nov 2022 15:01:02 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5771640012
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 2 Nov 2022 15:01:02 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 5771640012
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=h6EFifui
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.848
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1,
FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 7uADNL64QAI2
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 2 Nov 2022 15:01:01 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 0CB39401CC
Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com (mail-ej1-x635.google.com
[IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::635])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CB39401CC
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 2 Nov 2022 15:01:00 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id y14so46043379ejd.9
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 02 Nov 2022 08:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=cm8pu2YYmu2/+auGn39YPJGriJeRHxO47CDSYPP3i50=;
b=h6EFifuixB5rSIFQ9977vwjJGpZCi628MwzCdNsDy9PGlVWtZRVR6Q8yCVaF74qJfY
DmiZNqi8ieHAxBpIzbeCAXmpOtkBZZN676EuTvhRrR9laiiY1ZpkcF33t2YtYdjSiF3D
f4GRoBuPb6x4RagbCduXTtsEkDD8jg+Z2aUx3vLEQa+mIt7Q6+flBcfiJ9eNyai59R1G
5r83ZZRKULIEagERyXEaDi6X4EVoEdTP4L9cHT7wrOsCxu9wAHI7jwD/+zVIx01Z3su0
vBaKzwqX+NkSfLUEDlavA6vfoxSGZZeoytsnfOzzpMcx38KdYG3LYYz+972KoWaiqil5
fJtA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=cm8pu2YYmu2/+auGn39YPJGriJeRHxO47CDSYPP3i50=;
b=bdZVmkEPs6awYTf3neCxZaHBUIjYW6fFT5ve3guI9vpjpnoLu1eMmwqy3h2ClYs9ZG
cfg6+H9/5fvAlvMDN3GqW8M7p4umYWfkDhLuFtzzH4tX/NyI2bdWgSAu3LfZzFgEB87O
uugKfqp4ef802H2ppmJz+bQ2SHo6x+fppcD/VVaE2RJv4sVkoG+xrybaGaYQRcUh2Q3w
+7DeATlvPs5eB1ntbLgpHlnGbeLc+Z1no8m6QjvyRLVL7+35K772xxBh+9GEeQZgcuL+
9IMSq6Bmv1sVbjPyq+S/JRUlOe8w4XZjkuJenSI9aTFbUrRzZRnM05upMysokG207GWz
q7vg==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2CuREaLBv6D0+RLfp5nVEmSL3Kl87tORa8gDcCGbOuX32eVYNW
c85vYHE22DoGOi4b4e0YryYuQhFrcODRxz7xdCI=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7d5PwS30b0VM0/RKkSqfKUELNCpGwNRp3NjMXpvmx5WEHTkuVzFpKmR67UmTAXCpwk/Egu3JTOV/eNuTnr/6U=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:9414:b0:7ad:bde1:3ccf with SMTP id
q20-20020a170906941400b007adbde13ccfmr20440955ejx.543.1667401259172; Wed, 02
Nov 2022 08:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CALZpt+GZAd-vYMzUMicg0c9OyyWExtT5EH61Hms6NNOM19ddZA@mail.gmail.com>
<Y2J40/Cd40fUlFjj@petertodd.org>
<CAB3F3DsA3kNutwXGwamyyEgJN65rJt-0ks-ytuXP7jwjsjr8ug@mail.gmail.com>
<Y2J/zyeTh/rwekqe@petertodd.org>
In-Reply-To: <Y2J/zyeTh/rwekqe@petertodd.org>
From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:00:47 -0400
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DvbuawQwGou5mD_p814F6__0mdrKu1+fqXgAcP6iVOMOg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c0486805ec7e1bf6"
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Solving Multi-Party Flows Pinning with Opt-in
Full-RBF Spent-nVersion Signaling
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 15:01:02 -0000
--000000000000c0486805ec7e1bf6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> ...and the attacker also pays out the nose if they're exploiting rule #3.
I agree the attacker puts more at stake in this case. If we're assuming
they pay the price and get mined, they can be booted from the protocol
whenever they get mined. I was speaking about the worst case scenario where
it's never mined.
> We shouldn't assume it will always exist.
Just making sure people know that today it does impact things today.
On Wed, Nov 2, 2022, 10:33 AM Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 02, 2022 at 10:19:00AM -0400, Greg Sanders wrote:
> > Sorry, I forgot one point which is pertinent to this conversation.
> >
> > *Even with* fullrbf-everywhere and V3, pinning via rule#3 and rule#5 are
> > still an issue in coinjoin scenarios.
> >
> > Each coinjoin adversary can double-spend their coin to either full
> package
> > weight(101kvb),
> > or give 24 descendants, which means you quickly pay out the nose in
> rule#3
>
> ...and the attacker also pays out the nose if they're exploiting rule #3.
>
> > or are excluded
> > from RBFing it if you have 4+ greifers in your coinjoin violating rule#5.
> >
> > If we instead narrowed this policy to marking a transaction output as
> > opt-in to V3, it gets a bit more interesting. *Unfortunately,
> > double-spending counterparties can still cause rule#3 pain, one 100kvb
> > package of junk per peer,* but rule#5 violations is at least contained to
> > coinjoins with ~50 peers(assuming two transactions booted per input
> > double-spent, which would be the V3 max bumped per input).
>
> There's no hard technical reason for rule #5 to even exist. It's simply a
> conservative DoS limit to avoid having to do "too much" computation when
> processing a replacement in some replacement implementations. We shouldn't
> assume it will always exist. And like rule #3 pinning, exploiting it costs
> money.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
--000000000000c0486805ec7e1bf6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto">> ...and the attacker also pays out t=
he nose if they're exploiting rule #3.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">I agree the=C2=A0attacker puts more at stake in this cas=
e. If we're assuming they pay the price and get mined, they can be boot=
ed from the protocol whenever they get mined. I was speaking about the wors=
t case scenario where it's never mined.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">> We shouldn't assume it will always exist.</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div>Just making sure people know that today i=
t does impact things today.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 2, 2022, 10:33 AM Peter Todd &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.o=
rg</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">On Wed, Nov 02, 2022 at 10:19:00AM -0400, Greg Sanders wrote:<br>
> Sorry, I forgot one point which is pertinent to this conversation.<br>
> <br>
> *Even with* fullrbf-everywhere and V3, pinning via rule#3 and rule#5 a=
re<br>
> still an issue in coinjoin scenarios.<br>
> <br>
> Each coinjoin adversary can double-spend their coin to either full pac=
kage<br>
> weight(101kvb),<br>
> or give 24 descendants, which means you quickly pay out the nose in ru=
le#3<br>
<br>
...and the attacker also pays out the nose if they're exploiting rule #=
3.<br>
<br>
> or are excluded<br>
> from RBFing it if you have 4+ greifers in your coinjoin violating rule=
#5.<br>
> <br>
> If we instead narrowed this policy to marking a transaction output as<=
br>
> opt-in to V3, it gets a bit more interesting. *Unfortunately,<br>
> double-spending counterparties can still cause rule#3 pain, one 100kvb=
<br>
> package of junk per peer,* but rule#5 violations is at least contained=
to<br>
> coinjoins with ~50 peers(assuming two transactions booted per input<br=
>
> double-spent, which would be the V3 max bumped per input).<br>
<br>
There's no hard technical reason for rule #5 to even exist. It's si=
mply a<br>
conservative DoS limit to avoid having to do "too much" computati=
on when<br>
processing a replacement in some replacement implementations. We shouldn=
9;t<br>
assume it will always exist. And like rule #3 pinning, exploiting it costs<=
br>
money.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://pet=
ertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</=
a><br>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000c0486805ec7e1bf6--
|