1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
|
Return-Path: <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83462C0037
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515DE8143C
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 515DE8143C
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 header.b=iE9HVZxa
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id xje0SnODZtGp
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:39 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9986C80EA7
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:39 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 9986C80EA7
Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id
e9e14a558f8ab-35fd9e40039so37469985ab.1
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:17:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1703899058; x=1704503858;
darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org;
h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=mkOMMEbXD3Dd0lrhRMuOKCcT0Zh0BLX63i2agMByE8g=;
b=iE9HVZxa0v6dQe+uYDCthh9fLL0FTESOUIJWPTtkCkLo+0WyPA0PH7dflKpv/7mhNk
8m/HMleGlRncnTwYq2H8hEWpWm+9P+6AEwN7ph058ZuQIGGnciZp/QGYyPce3K9OoVBN
CogDLpjUp45M1/BZVVS7RuemhjzFmysaIotoCWaLFuiP5DSeo3f1zzQOGxcjW8VLR1ke
ymG9LVwLfGKqaVekQrJuKh97SzY+SbIGJAkaq113cxf130hUlGwMzDNakAIdA3tTBOOv
tO2m9tHR2cp5J4ZJiadtLAFBbJrl+wxkllECmsdFdwdOFauKeivuQiXKQQOGk+cMkfoM
+6Eg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1703899058; x=1704503858;
h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc
:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=mkOMMEbXD3Dd0lrhRMuOKCcT0Zh0BLX63i2agMByE8g=;
b=h0n7y8htzDffq7hepR2MAEsI6gZ6Hl6fgWNJ2bZ1cPx2iyN+ZEHNdWpmqSOfEWVVfH
VmKxsY0zpmiEU8cdXKywfLd3t8ZXDv/TjG0n94SrZ9yiOWud3SZgytO2Y2p1wLDjPhNy
8EOZ7/BBv1mUIcHqwbKNLL4Kj6MgzYvekUo1vrO8ugBc9fPJgzBtPLr37dOysvOtXvaB
cA45aOHUvMwbDVhkG1diyt3KCZdtHO5sq/R9Q449AWwphIDpDx6oycN3JaaOHqbIHDBU
VAXmqA+NoXfe2EnSFviy5SioF6MqipzrzlZDgguqmrVWe+R8lnPs1SDCkuFTS8uIhBAq
zxYA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyWtkzsijMB3VlhxSJgKvPgAvvg1LhQdPeLBUQNAJWM7/izvVci
kDh18uria6wgtDGX53nZBJbxSAtxVwTAqgxD+TtPUv9bWBdgdg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHDSbJwj1QA6t+2WQgHh/CeYh8AKjMMaHPiEEL0Sl75Vnf03XUbehz9tH6qrK0FHIJ4f0ps1I6TBzMq0XipttQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1546:b0:360:fed:85eb with SMTP id
j6-20020a056e02154600b003600fed85ebmr10204223ilu.56.1703899058648; Fri, 29
Dec 2023 17:17:38 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <dkAxjJIFndwa9WN8Hgrp92I3l3IH0SGRhheMntDfaaDjGTOOnv0s8zIivWE0yiHhh9ty0TQ_IUvkg9Zrs2KFjdSoH1_DrvCymhxA9hF-6Ko=@protonmail.com>
<8656E5B3-EDC7-4C00-93AB-C61AC6C22563@voskuil.org>
<786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org>
In-Reply-To: <786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org>
From: Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 22:17:01 -0300
Message-ID: <CAFC_Vt6yk2MwkUhiBKyGmOArVrU9VCdf27qR8wDMMOz_ONjt=A@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:58:26 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Lightning Safely With Feerate-Dependent
Timelocks
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:17:40 -0000
Hey David!
On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 9:37=E2=80=AFPM David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> We can't prevent people from paying out of band, but we can ensure that
> the easiest and most effective way to pay for a transaction is through
> in-band fees and transactions that are relayed to every miner who is
> interested in them. If we fail at that, I think Bitcoin losing its
> censorship resistance will be inevitable. LN, coinpools, and channel
> factories all strongly depend on Bitcoin transactions not being
> censored, so I don't think any security is lost by redesigning them to
> additionally depend on reasonably accurate in-band fee statistics.
Feerate-Dependent Timelocks do create incentives to accept out-of-band
fees to decrease in-band fees and speed up mining of transactions
using FDT! Miners can make a 5% discount on fees paid out-of-band and
many people will use it. Observed fees decrease and FDT transactions
mature faster. It is beneficial for both parties involved: senders of
transactions save 5% on fees, miners get FDT transactions mined faster
and get more profits (for the sake of example more than 5%).
--=20
Best regards,
Boris Nagaev
|
