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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal for P2P Wireless (Bluetooth LE)
	transfer of Payment URI
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Although consumer to merchant is a use case for BLE I would argue that NFC h=
as a higher chance of providing a better user experience in most cases since=
, at least on Android, a user can tap their phone without even having a wall=
et running. The URI handler will launch the wallet for them. However a dedic=
ated, user facing, screen can give certainty that the user is connecting to t=
he correct recipient.=20

1. Because it can show an address prefix=20
2. It can display the users nickname/handle upon connecting which is only se=
nt to the merchant upon a point to point connection. Not a broadcast.=20

The Airbitz wallet already does this on the recipient side. A popup shows th=
e most recent person connecting to the recipient.=20


  =20
Paul Puey CEO / Co-Founder, Airbitz Inc
619.850.8624 | http://airbitz.co | San Diego
    =20



On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Roy Badami <roy@gnomon.org.uk> wrote:

For peer-to-peer payments, how common do we think that the payment is
of an ad hoc nature rather than to a known contact?

If I want to pay my friends/colleagues/etc over a restaurant table
there's no reason why I couldn't already have their public keys in my
contact list - then it would be pretty straightforward to have a
watertight mechanism where I would know who I was paying.  You could
probably even relatively securely bootstrap a key exchange over SMS,
relying only on the contacts already having each other in their
phonebooks.

As for comsumer-to-merchant transactions where the merchant is a
bricks and mortar merchant, IMHO it absolutely has to be "pay that
terminal over there".  It's the trust model we all currently use -
whether paying cash or card - and it's the only trust model that works
IMHO (and customers and businesses alike are well aware of the risks
of a fraudster standing behind the counter pretending to be an
employee accepting payment - and by and large are pretty good at
mitigating it).  OTOH as we've discussed here before there are many
use cases where the custoemr doesn't actually know or care about the
name of the shop or bar they walked into but is pretty damn sure that
they need to make payment to the person over there behind the counter.

Granted, there are cases taht dont' fall into either of the above -
but they're the cases that are (a) harder to figure out how to
authenticate and consequently (b) the use cases that are going to be
most subject to attempted fraud.

roy

> On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 03:02:56PM -0800, William Swanson wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>> A MITM can receive the initial broadcast and then spoof it by jamming the=

>> original. You then only see one.
>=20
> You are right, of course. There is no way to make Bluetooth 100%
> secure, since it is an over-the-air technology. You could try securing
> it using a CA or other identity server, but now you've excluded ad-hoc
> person-to-person payments. Plus, you need an active internet
> connection to reach the CA.
>=20
> You can try using proximity as a substitute for identity, like
> requiring NFC to kick-start the connection, but at that point you
> might as well use QR codes.
>=20
> This BIP is not trying to provide absolute bullet-proof security,
> since that's impossible given the physical limitations of the
> Bluetooth technology. Instead, it's trying to provide the
> best-possible security given those constraints. In exchange for this,
> we get greatly enhanced usability in common scenarios.
>=20
> There are plenty of usable, real-world technologies with big security
> holes. Anybody with lock-picking experience will tell you this, but
> nobody is welding their front door shut. The ability to go in and out
> is worth the security risk.
>=20
> Bluetooth payments add a whole new dimension to real-world Bitcoin
> usability. Do we shut that down because it can't be made perfect, or
> do we do the best we can and move forward?
>=20
> -William
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is yo=
ur
> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a=

> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Although consumer to merchant is a use=
 case for BLE I would argue that NFC has a higher chance of providing a bett=
er user experience in most cases since, at least on Android, a user can tap t=
heir phone without even having a wallet running. The URI handler will launch=
 the wallet for them. However a dedicated, user facing, screen can give cert=
ainty that the user is connecting to the correct recipient.&nbsp;</div><div>=
<br></div><div>1. Because it can show an address prefix&nbsp;</div><div>2. I=
t can display the users nickname/handle upon connecting which is only sent t=
o the merchant upon a point to point connection. Not a broadcast.&nbsp;</div=
><div><br></div><div>The Airbitz wallet already does this on the recipient s=
ide. A popup shows the most recent person connecting to the recipient.&nbsp;=
</div><div><br><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br=
></span><table border=3D"0" style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-si=
ze: medium; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><tbody><tr valign=3D=
"top"><td style=3D"width: auto; vertical-align: top;"><font face=3D".Helveti=
caNeueInterface-M3"><span style=3D"font-size: 17px; -webkit-text-size-adjust=
: none; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><img src=3D"https://s3.am=
azonaws.com/webapp.wisestamp.com/v7Zg7GfIQ9mF5xlHZrZA_airbitzlogo.png" alt=3D=
"logo" style=3D"border: none; border-top-left-radius: 4px; border-top-right-=
radius: 4px; border-bottom-right-radius: 4px; border-bottom-left-radius: 4px=
;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br></span></font></td><td><font face=3D".HelveticaNeue=
Interface-M3"><span style=3D"font-size: 17px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: none=
; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b>Paul Puey</b>&nbsp;CEO / Co-=
Founder, Airbitz Inc<br></span></font><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px;"><font face=3D".HelveticaNeueInterface-M3"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 17px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; background-color: rgba(255, 255,=
 255, 0);"><a style=3D"outline: none;"></a><a href=3D"tel:619.850.8624" x-ap=
ple-data-detectors=3D"true" x-apple-data-detectors-type=3D"telephone" x-appl=
e-data-detectors-result=3D"0">6</a><a href=3D"tel:619.850.8624" x-apple-data=
-detectors=3D"true" x-apple-data-detectors-type=3D"telephone" x-apple-data-d=
etectors-result=3D"0">19.850.8624</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://airbitz.=
co/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"outline: none;">http://airbitz.co</a>&nbsp;|=
&nbsp;San Diego</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 5px;"><font col=
or=3D"#000000" face=3D".HelveticaNeueInterface-M3"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 17px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,=
 0);"><a href=3D"http://facebook.com/airbitz" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"out=
line: none;"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/facebook.png" width=3D"=
16" style=3D"border: none;"></a>&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/airbitz"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"outline: none;"><img src=3D"http://images.wisest=
amp.com/twitter.png" width=3D"16" alt=3D"" style=3D"border: none;"></a>&nbsp=
;<a href=3D"https://plus.google.com/118173667510609425617" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"outline: none;"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/googleplus=
.png" width=3D"16" style=3D"border: none;"></a>&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://go.a=
irbitz.co/comments/feed/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"outline: none;"><img sr=
c=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/blogRSS.png" width=3D"16" style=3D"border: n=
one;"></a>&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/paulpuey" target=3D"_blank=
" style=3D"outline: none;"><img src=3D"http://images.wisestamp.com/linkedin.=
png" width=3D"16" alt=3D"" style=3D"border: none;"></a>&nbsp;<a href=3D"http=
s://angel.co/paul-puey" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"outline: none;"><img src=3D=
"http://images.wisestamp.com/angelList.png" width=3D"16" alt=3D"" style=3D"b=
order: none;"></a></span></font></div></td></tr></tbody></table><table borde=
r=3D"0" style=3D"-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-size: medium; font-fam=
ily: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><tbody><tr valign=3D"top"><td style=3D"w=
idth: auto; vertical-align: top;"><br></td><td><br></td></tr></tbody></table=
></div><div><br>On Feb 5, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Roy Badami &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:roy@gnomon.org.uk">roy@gnomon.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><span=
>For peer-to-peer payments, how common do we think that the payment is</span=
><br><span>of an ad hoc nature rather than to a known contact?</span><br><sp=
an></span><br><span>If I want to pay my friends/colleagues/etc over a restau=
rant table</span><br><span>there's no reason why I couldn't already have the=
ir public keys in my</span><br><span>contact list - then it would be pretty s=
traightforward to have a</span><br><span>watertight mechanism where I would k=
now who I was paying. &nbsp;You could</span><br><span>probably even relative=
ly securely bootstrap a key exchange over SMS,</span><br><span>relying only o=
n the contacts already having each other in their</span><br><span>phonebooks=
.</span><br><span></span><br><span>As for comsumer-to-merchant transactions w=
here the merchant is a</span><br><span>bricks and mortar merchant, IMHO it a=
bsolutely has to be "pay that</span><br><span>terminal over there". &nbsp;It=
's the trust model we all currently use -</span><br><span>whether paying cas=
h or card - and it's the only trust model that works</span><br><span>IMHO (a=
nd customers and businesses alike are well aware of the risks</span><br><spa=
n>of a fraudster standing behind the counter pretending to be an</span><br><=
span>employee accepting payment - and by and large are pretty good at</span>=
<br><span>mitigating it). &nbsp;OTOH as we've discussed here before there ar=
e many</span><br><span>use cases where the custoemr doesn't actually know or=
 care about the</span><br><span>name of the shop or bar they walked into but=
 is pretty damn sure that</span><br><span>they need to make payment to the p=
erson over there behind the counter.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Grante=
d, there are cases taht dont' fall into either of the above -</span><br><spa=
n>but they're the cases that are (a) harder to figure out how to</span><br><=
span>authenticate and consequently (b) the use cases that are going to be</s=
pan><br><span>most subject to attempted fraud.</span><br><span></span><br><s=
pan>roy</span><br><span></span><br><span>On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 03:02:56PM -=
0800, William Swanson wrote:</span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>On Th=
u, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Eric Voskuil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.o=
rg">eric@voskuil.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>A MITM can receive the initial broadc=
ast and then spoof it by jamming the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>original. You then on=
ly see one.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>You are right, o=
f course. There is no way to make Bluetooth 100%</span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span>secure, since it is an over-the-air technology. Y=
ou could try securing</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span=
>it using a CA or other identity server, but now you've excluded ad-hoc</spa=
n><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>person-to-person payments=
. Plus, you need an active internet</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>connection to reach the CA.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Y=
ou can try using proximity as a substitute for identity, like</span><br></bl=
ockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>requiring NFC to kick-start the con=
nection, but at that point you</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span>might as well use QR codes.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Thi=
s BIP is not trying to provide absolute bullet-proof security,</span><br></b=
lockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>since that's impossible given the p=
hysical limitations of the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span>Bluetooth technology. Instead, it's trying to provide the</span><br></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>best-possible security given thos=
e constraints. In exchange for this,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><span>we get greatly enhanced usability in common scenarios.</span=
><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>There are plenty of usable, real-world technol=
ogies with big security</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp=
an>holes. Anybody with lock-picking experience will tell you this, but</span=
><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>nobody is welding their fr=
ont door shut. The ability to go in and out</span><br></blockquote><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><span>is worth the security risk.</span><br></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span>Bluetooth payments add a whole new dimension to real-world Bitcoin=
</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>usability. Do we shu=
t that down because it can't be made perfect, or</span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span>do we do the best we can and move forward?</span=
><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>-William</span><br></blockquote><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>--=
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Dive into the World o=
f Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,</span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span>sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership w=
ith Slashdot Media, is your</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><span>hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought=
</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>leadership blogs to n=
ews, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a</span><br></blockquote=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>look and join the conversation now. <a href=
=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</=
a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>__________________=
_____________________________</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>Bitcoin-development mailing list</span><br></blockquote><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge=
.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a></span><br></blockquote><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/list=
s/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo=
/bitcoin-development</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan></span><br></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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