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From: Marek Palatinus <marek@palatinus.cz>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 15:48:27 +0200
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Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Fwd:  Proposal to update BIP-32
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I received this:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal to update BIP-32
To: Marek Palatinus <marek@palatinus.cz>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Marek Palatinus <marek@palatinus.cz> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Jochen Hoenicke via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Bitcoin Developers,
>>
>> I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.
>>
>> I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal.  The chance
>> that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30.  Even if it happens, it
>> would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the
>> user downgrades).  The main reason for suggesting a change is that we
>> want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much
>> more likely.
>>
>
I think I change like this makes a lot of sense technically, and I wish I
had known how BIP-32 would end up being used inside higher level mechanisms
that automatically increment the position beyond the control of the
application generating them. The inclusion of the requirement was there
because ECDSA is notorious for security problems under biased secret keys,
though it's really only a certificational issue for secp256k1 (due to its
group order being so close to 2^256).

>
>> #QUESTIONS:
>>
>> What is the procedure to update the BIP?  Is it still possible to
>> change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final?  Or
>> should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?
>>
>
BIPs are not supposed to be updated with new ideas, only
remarks/links/typos/clarifications/..., so that their bumbers can
unambiguously be used to refer to an idea. My suggestion would be to write
a new BIP that overrides parts of BIP32, and then put a note in BIP32 that
a better mechanism is available that is unlikely to change things in
reality for the secp256k1 curve.

I guess


> What algorithm is preferred? (bike-shedding)  My suggestion:
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Change the last step of the private -> private derivation functions to:
>>
>>  . In case parse(I_L) >= n or k_i = 0, the procedure is repeated
>>    at step 2 with
>>     I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 || I_R || ser32(i))
>
>
>> ---
>>
>> I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit
>> test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same
>> length.  I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L >= n.
>> There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R
>> is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance
>> of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make
>> I_L >= n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256).  In
>> theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,
>> but this would make an implementation error in the "hard to test" path
>> of the program more likely.
>>
>
The chance for failure is a bit higher than that, as it only requires a
failed key (one in 2^128) in the first step, followed by an iteration that
results in the same I_R to cause a cycle. If you take multiple failures
before the cycle starts into account, the combined chance for failure is
p/(1-p)^2 / 2^256 (with p the chance for a random inadmissable key), which
is not much better than 1 in 2^128 for high values of p.

An alternative that always converges is to retry with an appended iteration
count is possible:
{
  I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 ||  || ser32(i)) for the first
iteration
  I = HMAC-SHA512(Key = c_par, Data = 0x01 ||  || ser32(i) || ser32(j)) for
iteration number j, with j > 0
}

Cheers,

-- 
Pieter

--001a114d9a500ac429053254f48d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I received this:<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">------=
---- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Pi=
eter Wuille</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail=
.com">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at =
6:44 PM<br>Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal to update BIP-32<br>To: Mare=
k Palatinus &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marek@palatinus.cz">marek@palatinus.cz</a=
>&gt;<br>Cc: Bitcoin Dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound=
ation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br><br><br><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Marek Palatinus=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marek@palatinus.cz" target=3D"_bla=
nk">marek@palatinus.cz</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><span class=3D"">On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Jochen Hoenicke vi=
a bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><span class=3D"">Hello Bitcoin Developers,<br>
<br>
I would like to make a proposal to update BIP-32 in a small way.<br><br></s=
pan><span class=3D"">
I think the backward compatibility issues are minimal.=C2=A0 The chance<br>
that this affects anyone is less than 10^-30.=C2=A0 Even if it happens, it<=
br>
would only create some additional addresses (that are not seen if the<br>
user downgrades).=C2=A0 The main reason for suggesting a change is that we<=
br>
want a similar method for different curves where a collision is much<br>
more likely.<br></span></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>I think I change like this makes a lot of sense technically, an=
d I wish I had known how BIP-32 would end up being used inside higher level=
 mechanisms that automatically increment the position beyond the control of=
 the application generating them. The inclusion of the requirement was ther=
e because ECDSA is notorious for security problems under biased secret keys=
, though it&#39;s really only a certificational issue for secp256k1 (due to=
 its group order being so close to 2^256). <br></div><span class=3D""><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<br>
#QUESTIONS:<br>
<br>
What is the procedure to update the BIP?=C2=A0 Is it still possible to<br>
change the existing BIP-32 even though it is marked as final?=C2=A0 Or<br>
should I make a new BIP for this that obsoletes BIP-32?<br></blockquote></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>BIPs are not suppose=
d to be updated with new ideas, only remarks/links/typos/clarifications/...=
, so that their bumbers can unambiguously be used to refer to an idea. My s=
uggestion would be to write a new BIP that overrides parts of BIP32, and th=
en put a note in BIP32 that a better mechanism is available that is unlikel=
y to change things in reality for the secp256k1 curve.<br></div><div><br></=
div><div>I guess <br>=C2=A0<br></div><span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
What algorithm is preferred? (bike-shedding)=C2=A0 My suggestion:<br>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
Change the last step of the private -&gt; private derivation functions to:<=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0. In case parse(I_L) &gt;=3D n or k_i =3D 0, the procedure is repeate=
d<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0at step 2 with<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I =3D HMAC-SHA512(Key =3D c_par, Data =3D 0x01 || I_R || ser3=
2(i))=C2=A0</blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>
<br>
---<br>
<br>
I think this suggestion is simple to implement (a bit harder to unit<br>
test) and the string to hash with HMAC-SHA512 always has the same<br>
length.=C2=A0 I use I_R, since I_L is obviously not very random if I_L &gt;=
=3D n.<br>
There is a minimal chance that it will lead to an infinite loop if I_R<br>
is the same in two consecutive iterations, but that has only a chance<br>
of 1 in 2^512 (if the algorithm is used for different curves that make<br>
I_L &gt;=3D n more likely, the chance is still less than 1 in 2^256).=C2=A0=
 In<br>
theory, this loop can be avoided by incrementing i in every iteration,<br>
but this would make an implementation error in the &quot;hard to test&quot;=
 path<br>
of the program more likely.<br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div></span><div>The chance for failure is a bit higher than that=
, as it only requires a failed key (one in 2^128) in the first step, follow=
ed by an iteration that results in the same I_R to cause a cycle. If you ta=
ke multiple failures before the cycle starts into account, the combined cha=
nce for failure is p/(1-p)^2 / 2^256 (with p the chance for a random inadmi=
ssable key), which is not much better than 1 in 2^128 for high values of p.=
<br><br></div><div>An alternative that always converges is to retry with an=
 appended iteration count is possible:<br>{<br></div><div>=C2=A0 I =3D HMAC=
-SHA512(Key =3D c_par, Data =3D 0x01 ||=C2=A0 || ser32(i)) for the first it=
eration<br>=C2=A0 I =3D HMAC-SHA512(Key =3D c_par, Data =3D 0x01 ||=C2=A0 |=
| ser32(i) || ser32(j)) for iteration number j, with j &gt; 0<br>}<br><br><=
/div><div>Cheers,<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br></f=
ont></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>-- <br=
></div><div>Pieter<br><br></div></font></span></div></div></div>
</div><br></div></div>

--001a114d9a500ac429053254f48d--