path: root/0b/03d0f9a5582483203718ac79471373ab062f92

Return-Path: <earonesty@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210C8C002A
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  8 May 2023 20:59:26 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6CB4011D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  8 May 2023 20:59:25 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org EF6CB4011D
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com
 header.i=@q32-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
 header.s=20221208 header.b=SMwAVsY1
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id I5kzfYLE4UMR
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  8 May 2023 20:59:19 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org BDB6C400A6
Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDB6C400A6
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon,  8 May 2023 20:59:18 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id
 3f1490d57ef6-b9a2b7852e6so1133423276.0
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Mon, 08 May 2023 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=q32-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1683579557; x=1686171557;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=rzYL6bDXhG49o11eRTQGqGzp1m93gjgjYxEPm+liDA4=;
 b=SMwAVsY1QSqhfJ8X7xykdcSMvPmuFUoofkKZUuvlbTiBZchjD3y6LAyqxSgZGpS+yd
 wtcewzoGacl9CvvzxyqKyH/urAd0Do27kjsyoTfn1Cde0KzqhlVtvYHt+dN0aPSjaaDx
 F3CUI6WGf9ZU7bcDbCaEIg1j2/K0+A0ENhR31f0zURr+CP1HkGwJx74B0K7dxz5infp+
 1OC9dX5Hg9gY4wzESE6414U1nucrrLNxTBtMKmv1SLwcxhlMCKGttXMCMRVnWqsDwaSJ
 onb9/9jN42IFCs3VpDSBNuNq3G+7gairWCDw2VsMDIauSyAmAWxJTYZk5UEIDZWl4UlT
 ilZg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1683579557; x=1686171557;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=rzYL6bDXhG49o11eRTQGqGzp1m93gjgjYxEPm+liDA4=;
 b=Wt2pfs5NlV09rK5b8Paur3cHz2LAGi6reIQQK11qiYZXTqeVVAilKEyMSpoOfogChs
 XW4LyHxrLOgZ0kvYJRluXjdeXTzbfkNnzoFDPiqc6SsEntGteaVYRMf3QT3kdmW29peX
 iuYSQkCHAJ6hwFr3I9Lgqv+7vAWsB9+j5cK6pm/YnTTfzisnS5hmHeQAjClwfPvy6W2R
 ZgZZdeWviGOJInmvzVybNpWQT37ZLlm641TOlpMKlRLmu55lpcCOQYfhHrawcvwVr1tD
 lfj4Y5bUVgbKbch9x84piJoK0mgqCMSSZa6ApZrq1+cdKwxQddGhemzTc1o4t4sWjlZp
 GchA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDxCpfMkVTe89sQ+FxsuVQrqiuHr/ic+7rqWNrNI6MUgHaz4wS2W
 fOd4pgXNHmITDmJ9gu4Lop3LDWQGqG4wd8Op2wUhbew9Wp6y/F5v0w==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5EnBZwdyDFHqLBdQDFqx2M/KN+3xWzy74Dis1nDZ+fQyVjEySyivSYuGuYUEcLhxJswZ4UXU/iIBJiFZNFqQU=
X-Received: by 2002:a25:abf0:0:b0:b8f:2156:c566 with SMTP id
 v103-20020a25abf0000000b00b8f2156c566mr11965983ybi.6.1683579557415; Mon, 08
 May 2023 13:59:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <Lm_5F74G9G21ydrFPovvmtHWpNXcbVzZibmU80oNqFRehJjcll89-t7OXqS5Fooe0cTNxGreIREMql3Li2xUCe2T5NVyss3-CrLzISO09HY=@notatether.com>
 <CAJowKgJaG8ZnZMuVTSmyhMxZKb4pcMF1XM+WH8j64Gasoy1kcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <-2tdTjN6WfQI-CTPM49DiMOC2X5El1vJdlWTQvpalXAHKVLdFd_7ADpYN7Cz57v0fJSkaiG75fHJzcBtvJgn7Pj-RZrEk6hXk6Rp_1Y7SrE=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKgJRiyWPC-qOKWMHQQaW-h5TXXOTDw2V6TKQBe3PXQQMZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <QYPtmRCZL8bbzudcgtR2tkRdZpVmJlR1b6eoJ3F1w5VDjGa_ePnHT2fR_Y7gG9hqplzM6wHgx14WC-a5EFQXlKyGxKa_MX4ZqD91oDLwyvU=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <QYPtmRCZL8bbzudcgtR2tkRdZpVmJlR1b6eoJ3F1w5VDjGa_ePnHT2fR_Y7gG9hqplzM6wHgx14WC-a5EFQXlKyGxKa_MX4ZqD91oDLwyvU=@protonmail.com>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 16:59:05 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKgLWSd4AC+L0NFfon3YQZyB1eBrvmd==nerRQCs+637zKQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000788f5205fb34e9d7"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 09 May 2023 01:59:03 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Ali Sherief <ali@notatether.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Mempool spam] Should we as developers reject
 non-standard Taproot transactions from full nodes?
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 May 2023 20:59:26 -0000

--000000000000788f5205fb34e9d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> value you can from these Lightning channel(s) onchain even if it means
paying a higher fee than the amount you are receiving.

in that case, you're not getting any value - you're losing value.   the
only benefit i could imagine would be to prevent the other party from
having access to the funds should the channel expire.

regardless, this is an edge case.   it's clear that a utxo whose value is
less than the fee paid to move it is dust, and we already have plenty of
code to censor dust transactions

> no reason to prevent

the reason to prevent them is to prevent something that has more value than
the bitcoin itself from being stored on-chain.  that is to say:
real-estate ownership, nfts, or any other thing that isn't "using bitcoin
as money"

by going at the "incentive/economic layer", rather than pointlessly forcing
brc-20 and ordinals users to obfuscate their transactions, we can provide a
permanent incentive to keep that stuff off of bitcoin

personally, i'm not sure it's desirable to keep it off of bitcoin, but if
it is, the only sure way to disincentivize it is to go at it in this way or
similar

i suspect all the opcode validation suggestions are just silly.   ordinals
can time their fork to the same moment, and store data in a less efficient,
but still functional, way using any number of mechanisms.   we've had
similar things posted on-chain since 2010 (my favorite was a software
license key - in an attempt to make bitcoin nodes illegal.   it's still in
there)


On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folkson <
michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:

> > im unclear as to the purpose paying an onchain transaction fee greater
> than the amount receiving could possibly serve.
>
> If you expect fees to continue to rise and be sustained at abnormally hig=
h
> levels for a long period of time you might seek to close your Lightning
> channel(s) and move whatever value you can from these Lightning channel(s=
)
> onchain even if it means paying a higher fee than the amount you are
> receiving.
>
> I don't necessarily recommend doing this (it would depend on a number of
> factors, both personal and external) but there is no reason to prevent
> someone in say the consensus rules from doing this if they wish.
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
>
> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 20:47, Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote:
>
> im unclear as to the purpose paying an onchain transaction fee greater
> than the amount receiving could possibly serve.
>
> what benefit do you get aside from losing bitcoin?
>
> are there any, non-theoretical, benefits to facilitating dust transaction=
s?
>
> we could, of course, have it be non-consensus (no route dust) to start wi=
th
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folkson <
> michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher
>> than the sum of the outputs
>>
>> And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of value and attempted
>> Lightning channel closes during fee spikes? If I *want*=E2=80=8B to clos=
e my
>> Lightning channel during a protracted fee spike where I have to pay an
>> onchain transaction fee greater than the amount I am receiving you want =
to
>> stop me doing that? You are impinging on a valid use case as well as
>> requiring a consensus rule change.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Folkson
>> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
>> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
>>
>> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>>
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher
>> than the sum of the outputs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:55 AM Ali Sherief via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I think everyone on this list knows what has happened to the Bitcoin
>>> mempool during the past 96 hours. Due to side projects such as BRC-20
>>> having such a high volume, real bitcoin transactions are being priced o=
ut
>>> and that is what is causing the massive congestion that has arguable no=
t
>>> been seen since December 2017. I do not count the March 2021 congestion
>>> because that was only with 1-5sat/vbyte.
>>>
>>> Such justifiably worthless ("worthless" is not even my word - that's ho=
w
>>> its creator described them[1]) tokens threaten the smooth and normal us=
e of
>>> the Bitcoin network as a peer-to-pear digital currency, as it was inten=
ded
>>> to be used as.
>>>
>>> If the volume does not die down over the next few weeks, should we take
>>> an action? The bitcoin network is a triumvirate of developers, miners, =
and
>>> users. Considering that miners are largely the entities at fault for
>>> allowing the system to be abused like this, the harmony of Bitcoin
>>> transactions is being disrupted right now. Although this community has =
a
>>> strong history of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely
>>> necessary - an example being during the block size wars and Segwit - sh=
ould
>>> similar action be taken now, in the form of i) BIPs and/or ii) commits =
into
>>> the Bitcoin Core codebase, to curtail the loophole in BIP 342 (which
>>> defines the validation rules for Taproot scripts) which has allowed the=
se
>>> unintended consequences?
>>>
>>> An alternative would be to enforce this "censorship" at the node level
>>> and introduce a run-time option to instantly prune all non-standard Tap=
root
>>> transactions. This will be easier to implement, but won't hit the road
>>> until minimum next release.
>>>
>>> I know that some people will have their criticisms about this,
>>> absolutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom advocates, which is fine, but =
we
>>> need to find a solution for this that fits everyone's common ground. We
>>> indirectly allowed this to happen, which previously wasn't possible bef=
ore.
>>> So we also have a responsibility to do something to ensure that this ki=
nd
>>> of congestion can never happen again using Taproot.
>>>
>>> -Ali
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> [1]:
>>> https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-th=
e-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/
>>> <https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-t=
he-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/?outputType=3Damp>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>

--000000000000788f5205fb34e9d7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:14px">value you can fro=
m these Lightning channel(s) onchain even if it means paying a higher fee t=
han the amount you are receiving.</span><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:14px">in that case, you&#39;re not getting any=
 value - you&#39;re losing value.=C2=A0 =C2=A0the only benefit i could imag=
ine would be to prevent the other party from having access to the funds sho=
uld the channel expire.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br><br>regardless, this is an edge cas=
e.=C2=A0 =C2=A0it&#39;s clear that a utxo whose value is less than the fee =
paid to move it is dust, and we already have plenty of code to censor dust =
transactions<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:14px">&gt; no reason to p=
revent<br><br>the reason to prevent them is to prevent something that has m=
ore value than the bitcoin itself from being stored on-chain.=C2=A0 that is=
 to say:=C2=A0 real-estate ownership, nfts, or any other thing that isn&#39=
;t &quot;using bitcoin as money&quot;</div><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"font-size:14px">by going at the &quot;incentive/econo=
mic layer&quot;, rather than pointlessly forcing brc-20 and ordinals users =
to obfuscate their transactions, we can provide a permanent incentive to ke=
ep that stuff off of bitcoin</div><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-size:14px">personally, i&#39;m not sure it&#39;s desirabl=
e to keep it off of bitcoin, but if it is, the only sure way to disincentiv=
ize it is to go at it in this way or similar</div><div style=3D"font-size:1=
4px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:14px">i suspect all the opcode valid=
ation suggestions are just silly.=C2=A0 =C2=A0ordinals can time their fork =
to the same moment, and store data in a less efficient, but still=C2=A0func=
tional, way using any number of mechanisms.=C2=A0 =C2=A0we&#39;ve had simil=
ar things posted on-chain since 2010 (my favorite was a software license ke=
y - in an attempt to make bitcoin nodes illegal.=C2=A0 =C2=A0it&#39;s still=
 in there)<br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 4:36=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folk=
son &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@protonmail.com">michaelfolkson@pro=
tonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><font face=3D"Arial, sans-serif">&=
gt;=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;line-height=
:1.5">im unclear as to the purpose<span>=C2=A0</span><span>paying an onchai=
n transaction fee greater than the amount receiving could possibly serve.</=
span></span><div style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;line-height:1.5"=
><span><br></span></div>If you expect fees to continue to rise and be susta=
ined at abnormally high levels for a long period of time you might seek to =
close your Lightning channel(s) and move whatever value you can from these =
Lightning channel(s) onchain even if it means paying a higher fee than the =
amount you are receiving.</div><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-size:14px">I don&#39;t necessarily recommend doing this (it =
would depend on a number of factors, both personal and external) but there =
is no reason to prevent someone in say the consensus rules from doing this =
if they wish.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospac=
e,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">--<br>Michael Folkson</span></s=
pan></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo=
,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">Email: michaelfolkson =
at </span></span></span><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" style=3D"li=
ne-height:normal;text-decoration:underline;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Conso=
las,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px" href=3D"http://proton=
mail.com/" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,=
42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:=
SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospa=
ce"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"> </span></span></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Re=
gular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14px">GPG: <span>A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE=
0F</span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-si=
ze:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pr=
e-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;displa=
y:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberati=
on Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><sp=
an><br></span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;fo=
nt-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Lib=
eration Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px=
"><span>Learn about Bitcoin: <span><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" =
href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
    </div>

            <div>

            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 20:47, Erik Aronesty &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:erik@q32.com" target=3D"_blank">erik@q32.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>im unclear as to the purpose <span style=
=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px">paying an onchain tran=
saction fee greater than the amount receiving could possibly serve.</span><=
/div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><=
br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:14px">what benefit do you get aside from losing bitcoin?</span></div><d=
iv><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></sp=
an></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">are there any, non-theoretical, benefits to facilitating dust transactio=
ns?</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px">we could, of course, have it be non-consensus (no rout=
e dust) to start with</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div=
><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span=
></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folkson &lt;<a rel=3D=
"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@protonmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">michaelfolkson@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">&gt; <span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,=
sans-serif;display:inline">probably easier just to reject any transaction w=
here the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs</span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family=
:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui=
,sans-serif;display:inline">And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of v=
alue and attempted Lightning channel closes during fee spikes? If I <b>want=
</b>=E2=80=8B to close my Lightning channel during a protracted fee spike w=
here I have to pay an onchain transaction fee greater than the amount I am =
receiving you want to stop me doing that? You are impinging on a valid use =
case as well as requiring a consensus rule change.</span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family=
:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospac=
e,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">--<br>Michael Folkson</span></s=
pan></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo=
,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">Email: michaelfolkson =
at </span></span></span><a href=3D"http://protonmail.com/" style=3D"line-he=
ight:normal;text-decoration:underline;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&=
quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow=
 noopener" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,=
42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:=
SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospa=
ce"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"> </span></span></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Re=
gular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14px">GPG: <span>A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE=
0F</span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-si=
ze:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pr=
e-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;displa=
y:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberati=
on Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><sp=
an><br></span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;fo=
nt-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Lib=
eration Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px=
"><span>Learn about Bitcoin: <span><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/@port=
ofbitcoin" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
    </div>

            <div>

            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev &l=
t;<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"auto">probably easier just to reject any transactio=
n where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs<div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:55 AM Ali Sherief =
via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">Hi guys,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"=
><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I thi=
nk everyone on this list knows what has happened to the Bitcoin mempool dur=
ing the past 96 hours. Due to side projects such as BRC-20 having such a hi=
gh volume, real bitcoin transactions are being priced out and that is what =
is causing the massive congestion that has arguable not been seen since Dec=
ember 2017. I do not count the March 2021 congestion because that was only =
with 1-5sat/vbyte.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
">Such justifiably worthless (&quot;worthless&quot; is not even my word - t=
hat&#39;s how its creator described them[1]) tokens threaten the smooth and=
 normal use of the Bitcoin network as a peer-to-pear digital currency, as i=
t was intended to be used as.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:14px">If the volume does not die down over the next few weeks, shoul=
d we take an action? The bitcoin network is a triumvirate of developers, mi=
ners, and users. Considering that miners are largely the entities at fault =
for allowing the system to be abused like this, the harmony of Bitcoin tran=
sactions is being disrupted right now. Although this community has a strong=
 history of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely necessary -=
 an example being during the block size wars and Segwit - should similar ac=
tion be taken now, in the form of i) BIPs and/or ii) commits into the Bitco=
in Core codebase, to curtail the loophole in BIP 342 (which defines the val=
idation rules for Taproot scripts) which has allowed these unintended conse=
quences?</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">An alter=
native would be to enforce this &quot;censorship&quot; at the node level an=
d introduce a run-time option to instantly prune all non-standard Taproot t=
ransactions. This will be easier to implement, but won&#39;t hit the road u=
ntil minimum next release.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:14px">I know that some people will have their criticisms about this, ab=
solutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom advocates, which is fine, but we nee=
d to find a solution for this that fits everyone&#39;s common ground. We in=
directly allowed this to happen, which previously wasn&#39;t possible befor=
e. So we also have a responsibility to do something to ensure that this kin=
d of congestion can never happen again using Taproot.</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">-Ali</div><div style=3D"font-family:Ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:14px">---</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font=
-size:14px">[1]: <span><a href=3D"https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazi=
ne/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/=
?outputType=3Damp" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-pro=
mise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/</a></span></div><div style=3D"font=
-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div>
    </div>

            <div>

            </div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<=
/a><br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxf=
oundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

        </blockquote><br>
    </div></blockquote></div>

        </blockquote><br>
    </div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000788f5205fb34e9d7--