path: root/06/496d4fccbb817e6ea7de8ddd4e100ca282092f

Delivery-date: Thu, 04 Sep 2025 09:51:05 -0700
Received: from mail-oa1-f64.google.com ([209.85.160.64])
	by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps  (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
	(Exim 4.94.2)
	(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDGJR37ZSINRB3UG47CQMGQENDABRXQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1uuDAt-0007Pj-Tl
	for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Thu, 04 Sep 2025 09:51:04 -0700
Received: by mail-oa1-f64.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-3197d9e1c38sf1080326fac.3
        for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Thu, 04 Sep 2025 09:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1757004657; x=1757609457; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:x-original-sender
         :mime-version:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date
         :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=8vK2HD0OfBcX+Zb2DFjRBLzgrBYq34PhBbYI9Art1V8=;
        b=OVg7MNnGSTaCQE+Tvn3e7QdYAPh3cw694zQBg+hGdPY7+ZovqJQ2o7YZLPT9uEfPYt
         yzs6BRhs8dk7muslA176h/l2ihHkTPUq/heVwrnVfhruVKmJMOiuUomjWBeCoQF0oMSn
         0kkqtbKJN5ZUb5M/k+huiFMIyp0TDEY9r7q//UqO3HhWQQ22yjOzWMnWS32wJ0az5wD+
         EZdXNINo7yYbUKBIM+qScQVa2P9vw48UEDAtGvYY3DD733k9abpsKCd4pm3L87NNBmow
         BLVCpXiCoe3BJCGMMLA0UIxiPVpeFiYDkWXy5jE/eNS7e+IMIxYBTbdpj8ZGNiJViS4q
         D9kQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1757004657; x=1757609457;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:x-original-sender
         :mime-version:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date
         :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
         :reply-to;
        bh=8vK2HD0OfBcX+Zb2DFjRBLzgrBYq34PhBbYI9Art1V8=;
        b=xAXjU27pq1UKKYkxjWYDyi35XuWR1tH9+zBBedDXovF9i7csTjYCiUcxxQmFRlRqGT
         LW02A3PtBcI54bN0ZT/4PQHQLK5PSaqbJO9tq1VZmCMVz9ioAFblnjJEXOwHbqkdSLiy
         yhyZws9K3Y1AQML+jdV/j5UQ+9dtw4TT8Ob9BWJKSo/m7PNXgTNsiGswgRoLiW9gk5Fx
         FMTLl2eLqTg042Wd3sn7UVvJeu4EQQThTKwe071wdjUyCsuMYsiMXjRr3cEtIC3cjgfS
         4006Q4ehATQUV/sCqzzVyhQEdRko8JQz8nvvuX4PRcfz78/ijc0Y3P7KqznLvYXp3w10
         +U6A==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVBGDEou2585ElyfNCZb1EYGRi+16lXrmsEV1F7wNZ3W0Iqjzl17FHNSxNMLQYK848jB4nxU59bYE0h@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzaNWthTWI33EXQ46ySv0MJ89F1/RpBOUHpqayOdj8sOUPqna53
	oZhJmSQLOgveeGm5odTqqMex4NrFh9n+9EDSWaQhM4VXBQMXolg3HS9H
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEMRx+QW5fmKCO6oVoEupOO5oJtJewU5bKvVbsWJANO8SyjemUm8Vw2LpxERdIThaCCIDRLFw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:7007:b0:300:d9f4:dfaa with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-31963347379mr10450566fac.27.1757004657096;
        Thu, 04 Sep 2025 09:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZf5w98GGguxHFFdycJuEUNhfqKVFbvaJ8aztUR8oace+g==
Received: by 2002:a05:6871:81d1:10b0:319:c62c:c8e0 with SMTP id
 586e51a60fabf-319c62cd023ls1477227fac.0.-pod-prod-07-us; Thu, 04 Sep 2025
 09:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3309:b0:438:3df9:8867 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-4383df990dcmr1543859b6e.18.1757004653910;
        Thu, 04 Sep 2025 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:690c:2b83:b0:71b:f426:a5b0 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-72281037cc5ms7b3;
        Tue, 2 Sep 2025 17:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4d84:b0:71b:f83a:afa0 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7227640e8a2mr169026227b3.22.1756860247555;
        Tue, 02 Sep 2025 17:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 17:44:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "'Ben Westgate' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <4064eb1b-f430-4ccd-958e-aa03c653439dn@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <9513ab67-511b-4f24-bcfe-e77e8d9112cdn@googlegroups.com>
References: <774faeb9-6c6b-4545-8071-56ec03e78cd0n@googlegroups.com>
 <8a0d48f9-bc15-492f-8b81-14dac4729a5cn@googlegroups.com>
 <dc8e0b5f-24dc-471d-89e4-4b4b2effcdc0n@googlegroups.com>
 <9513ab67-511b-4f24-bcfe-e77e8d9112cdn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [bitcoindev] Re: [BIP Proposal] Add BIP-0093 (Codex32) as application
 to BIP-0085
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_390004_422932088.1756860247256"
X-Original-Sender: BenWestgate@Protonmail.com
X-Original-From: Ben Westgate <BenWestgate@Protonmail.com>
Reply-To: Ben Westgate <BenWestgate@Protonmail.com>
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

------=_Part_390004_422932088.1756860247256
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_390005_364410716.1756860247256"

------=_Part_390005_364410716.1756860247256
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Thanks Javier for confirming my updates address your concerns,
Andrew Poelstra and Russell O'Connor gave feedback on the bip85 codex32=20
application, they:
- support it for recoverable "uncle-Jim"-style child codex32 strings for=20
forgetful relatives.
- prefer wallets generate t fresh initial strings by directly encoding RNG=
=20
entropy to maintain information-theoretic security.
- see value in it to stretch entropy when users won=E2=80=99t provide enoug=
h for=20
direct encoding but don't trust their hRNG.
- consider codex32 backups for a bip85 root keys a very good idea.

I welcome further feedback on the proposed before I submit it as a PR:=20
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32

Best regards, Ben Westgate

On Tuesday, September 2, 2025 at 4:37:20=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos wro=
te:

Hi Ben,

Thank you for implementing those changes so promptly. I reviewed the commit=
=20
and the updates address both concerns effectively.

These changes should ensure consistent implementations across different=20
codex32 tooling that uses BIP-85 derivation.

The proposal looks technically sound, follows BIP-85's established pattern=
=20
for applications, and is supported by comprehensive test vectors and a=20
reference implementation.=20

Looking forward to hearing feedback from other reviewers as well.

Best regards,
Javier Mateos

El lunes, 1 de septiembre de 2025 a las 20:15:11 UTC-3, Ben Westgate=20
escribi=C3=B3:

Hi Javier,

Thank you for your feedback.=20

I added pseudocode for the character value selection. I added a column and=
=20
row to the n table to clarify the t=3D=3D0 constraint on n, removed the not=
es=20
and in the unshared secret section made the normative statement: 'When thre=
shold=20
=3D=3D "0", n MUST be *1* and the output is a codex32 secret.'

I=E2=80=99ve updated the PR with these changes and would appreciate your re=
view.

Commit:=20
https://github.com/BenWestgate/bips/commit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d1=
2284ef02

Best regards, Ben Westgate


On Monday, September 1, 2025 at 6:34:39=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos wrot=
e:

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your proposal to integrate BIP-0093 (codex32) as an=20
application within BIP-0085

Reviewing the specification,  I believe I see two areas where we could=20
improve clarity for implementers:

1) The DRNG=E2=86=925-bit extraction process could benefit from explicit ps=
eudocode=20
to avoid implementation variations
2) The rule 'threshold =3D=3D 0 implies n =3D=3D 1' currently appears as a =
note but=20
could be clearer as a normative requirement"

Best Regards,
Javier Mateos

El domingo, 31 de agosto de 2025 a las 19:29:46 UTC-3, Ben Westgate=20
escribi=C3=B3:

Hello bitcoin-dev,

I=E2=80=99m Ben Westgate, a contributor interested in deterministic wallet =
backups=20
and seed management.

Per BIP-0002, I propose listing *BIP-0093 (codex32)*=20
<https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0093.mediawiki> as an=20
application of
*BIP-0085 (Deterministic Entropy from BIP32 Keychains)=20
<https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0085.mediawiki>*, similar=
=20
to the existing BIP39 application. This allows wallets to derive codex32=20
backups from BIP-0032 master keys.

*Summary*=20

   -=20
  =20
   Application number: 93'
   - Derivation path:=20
   m/83696968'/93'/{hrp}'/{threshold}'/{n}'/{byte_length}'/{id0}'/{id1}'/{i=
d2}'/{id3}'/{index}'=20
  =20
Codex32, defined in BIP-93, is a human-readable encoding with checksumming=
=20
and share indexing designed for SSS backups of BIP-0032 seeds. This PR=20
proposes a deterministic way to generate codex32 strings using BIP-85.

*Rationale*=20

   -=20
  =20
   Mirrors the existing BIP-85 application for BIP-39.
   -=20
  =20
   Codex32 offers error correction, hand verification, identifiers, and=20
   secret sharing features compared to BIP-39.
   -=20
  =20
   Adds a standardized way for wallets to generate codex32 backups from=20
   BIP-85-derived entropy
   -=20
  =20
   Test vectors and reference implementation are linked to in the PR.
  =20
*Risks and alternatives*=20

   -=20
  =20
   Wallet adoption of codex32 is still limited, though a draft PR #32652=20
   <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32652?utm_source=3Dchatgpt.com>=
=20
   for importing codex32 strings to Bitcoin Core has support.
   - Codex32 implementers could use the BIP-85 dice application, but=20
   defining a direct application improves interoperability.

PR:=20
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32=
=20
<https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32?=
utm_source=3Dchatgpt.com>

Feedback is welcome.
Best regards,
Ben Westgate



On Tuesday, September 2, 2025 at 4:37:20=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos wro=
te:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Thank you for implementing those changes so promptly. I reviewed the=20
> commit and the updates address both concerns effectively.
>
> These changes should ensure consistent implementations across different=
=20
> codex32 tooling that uses BIP-85 derivation.
>
> The proposal looks technically sound, follows BIP-85's established patter=
n=20
> for applications, and is supported by comprehensive test vectors and a=20
> reference implementation.=20
>
> Looking forward to hearing feedback from other reviewers as well.
>
> Best regards,
> Javier Mateos
>
> El lunes, 1 de septiembre de 2025 a las 20:15:11 UTC-3, Ben Westgate=20
> escribi=C3=B3:
>
>> Hi Javier,
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback.=20
>>
>> I added pseudocode for the character value selection. I added a column=
=20
>> and row to the n table to clarify the t=3D=3D0 constraint on n, removed =
the=20
>> notes and in the unshared secret section made the normative statement:=
=20
>> 'When threshold =3D=3D "0", n MUST be *1* and the output is a codex32=20
>> secret.'
>>
>> I=E2=80=99ve updated the PR with these changes and would appreciate your=
 review.
>>
>> Commit:=20
>> https://github.com/BenWestgate/bips/commit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a11=
2d12284ef02
>>
>> Best regards, Ben Westgate
>>
>>
>> On Monday, September 1, 2025 at 6:34:39=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos w=
rote:
>>
>>> Hi Ben,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your proposal to integrate BIP-0093 (codex32) as an=20
>>> application within BIP-0085
>>>
>>> Reviewing the specification,  I believe I see two areas where we could=
=20
>>> improve clarity for implementers:
>>>
>>> 1) The DRNG=E2=86=925-bit extraction process could benefit from explici=
t=20
>>> pseudocode to avoid implementation variations
>>> 2) The rule 'threshold =3D=3D 0 implies n =3D=3D 1' currently appears a=
s a note=20
>>> but could be clearer as a normative requirement"
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Javier Mateos
>>>
>>> El domingo, 31 de agosto de 2025 a las 19:29:46 UTC-3, Ben Westgate=20
>>> escribi=C3=B3:
>>>
>>>> Hello bitcoin-dev,
>>>>
>>>> I=E2=80=99m Ben Westgate, a contributor interested in deterministic wa=
llet=20
>>>> backups and seed management.
>>>>
>>>> Per BIP-0002, I propose listing *BIP-0093 (codex32)*=20
>>>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0093.mediawiki> as an=
=20
>>>> application of
>>>> *BIP-0085 (Deterministic Entropy from BIP32 Keychains)=20
>>>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0085.mediawiki>*,=20
>>>> similar to the existing BIP39 application. This allows wallets to deri=
ve=20
>>>> codex32 backups from BIP-0032 master keys.
>>>>
>>>> *Summary*=20
>>>>
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Application number: 93'
>>>>    - Derivation path:=20
>>>>    m/83696968'/93'/{hrp}'/{threshold}'/{n}'/{byte_length}'/{id0}'/{id1=
}'/{id2}'/{id3}'/{index}'=20
>>>>   =20
>>>> Codex32, defined in BIP-93, is a human-readable encoding with=20
>>>> checksumming and share indexing designed for SSS backups of BIP-0032 s=
eeds.=20
>>>> This PR proposes a deterministic way to generate codex32 strings using=
=20
>>>> BIP-85.
>>>>
>>>> *Rationale*=20
>>>>
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Mirrors the existing BIP-85 application for BIP-39.
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Codex32 offers error correction, hand verification, identifiers,=20
>>>>    and secret sharing features compared to BIP-39.
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Adds a standardized way for wallets to generate codex32 backups=20
>>>>    from BIP-85-derived entropy
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Test vectors and reference implementation are linked to in the PR.
>>>>   =20
>>>> *Risks and alternatives*=20
>>>>
>>>>    -=20
>>>>   =20
>>>>    Wallet adoption of codex32 is still limited, though a draft PR=20
>>>>    #32652=20
>>>>    <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32652?utm_source=3Dchatgpt=
.com>=20
>>>>    for importing codex32 strings to Bitcoin Core has support.
>>>>    - Codex32 implementers could use the BIP-85 dice application, but=
=20
>>>>    defining a direct application improves interoperability.
>>>>
>>>> PR:=20
>>>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:code=
x32=20
>>>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:cod=
ex32?utm_source=3Dchatgpt.com>
>>>>
>>>> Feedback is welcome.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Ben Westgate
>>>
>>>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
4064eb1b-f430-4ccd-958e-aa03c653439dn%40googlegroups.com.

------=_Part_390005_364410716.1756860247256
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">Thanks Javier for con=
firming my updates address your concerns,</p>Andrew<span> Poelstra</span> a=
nd <span><span>Russell O'Connor gave feedback on the bip85 codex32 applicat=
ion, they:</span></span></div><div><span><span>- support it for recoverable=
 "uncle-Jim"-style child codex32 strings for forgetful relatives.</span></s=
pan></div><div><span><span></span></span></div><div></div><div></div><div><=
div>- prefer wallets generate <span><span></span><span aria-hidden=3D"true"=
><span><span style=3D"height: 0.6833em;"></span><span style=3D"margin-right=
: 0.13889em;">t</span></span></span></span> fresh initial strings by <span =
style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">directly encoding RNG entropy</span> to ma=
intain information-theoretic security.</div><div></div></div><div><span><sp=
an></span></span></div><div><div><span><span>- see value </span></span><spa=
n><span></span></span><span><span>in it </span></span><span style=3D"white-=
space: pre-wrap;">to stretch entropy when users won=E2=80=99t provide enoug=
h for direct encoding</span><span><span> but don't trust their hRNG</span><=
/span><span><span>.<br /></span></span></div><div><div><span><span>- consid=
er codex32 backups  for a bip85 root keys a very good idea.<br /></span></s=
pan><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">I welcome further feed=
back on the proposed before I submit it as a PR: https://github.com/bitcoin=
/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32</p></div></div><div><p dir=
=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">Best regards,
Ben Westgate</p></div><div><span><span><br /></span></span></div></div><div=
><div dir=3D"auto">On Tuesday, September 2, 2025 at 4:37:20=E2=80=AFAM UTC-=
5 Javier Mateos wrote:<br /></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><p>Hi=
 Ben,</p>
<p>Thank you for implementing those changes so promptly. I reviewed the com=
mit and the updates address both concerns effectively.</p>
<p>These changes should ensure consistent implementations across different =
codex32 tooling that uses BIP-85 derivation.</p>
<p>

The proposal looks technically sound, follows BIP-85's established=20
pattern for applications, and is supported by comprehensive test vectors
 and a reference implementation.

</p>
<p>Looking forward to hearing feedback from other reviewers as well.</p>
<p>Best regards,<br />
Javier Mateos</p><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto">El lunes, 1 de septiembre de =
2025 a las 20:15:11 UTC-3, Ben Westgate escribi=C3=B3:<br /></div><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,=
 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;"=
>Hi Javier,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">Thank you for your feedbac=
k. </p><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">I added pseudocode =
for the character value selection. I added a column and row to the n table =
to clarify the t=3D=3D0 constraint on n, removed the notes and in the unsha=
red secret section made the normative statement: 'When <span>threshold =3D=
=3D "0"</span>, <span>n</span> MUST be <i>1</i> and the output is a codex32=
 secret.'</p><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">I=E2=80=99ve =
updated the PR with these changes and would appreciate your review.</p><p d=
ir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">Commit: <a href=3D"https://git=
hub.com/BenWestgate/bips/commit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d12284ef02" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/BenWestgate/bips/commi=
t/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d12284ef02</a></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space: pre-wrap;">Best regards,
Ben Westgate</p><br /><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto">On Monday, September 1, =
2025 at 6:34:39=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos wrote:<br /></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Ben,<br /><br />Thank you for your proposal to=
 integrate BIP-0093 (codex32) as an application within BIP-0085<br /><br />=
Reviewing the specification, =C2=A0I believe I see two areas where we could=
 improve clarity for implementers:<br /><br />1) The DRNG=E2=86=925-bit ext=
raction process could benefit from explicit pseudocode to avoid implementat=
ion variations<br />2) The rule 'threshold =3D=3D 0 implies n =3D=3D 1' cur=
rently appears as a note but could be clearer as a normative requirement"<b=
r /><br />Best Regards,<br />Javier Mateos<br /><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto=
">El domingo, 31 de agosto de 2025 a las 19:29:46 UTC-3, Ben Westgate escri=
bi=C3=B3:<br /></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><p>Hello bitcoin-d=
ev,</p>
<p>I=E2=80=99m Ben Westgate, a contributor interested in deterministic wall=
et backups and seed management.</p>
<p>Per BIP-0002, I propose listing <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bi=
ps/blob/master/bip-0093.mediawiki" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><b>BI=
P-0093 (codex32)</b></a> as an application of<br />
<b><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0085.mediawik=
i" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">BIP-0085 (Deterministic Entropy from =
BIP32 Keychains)</a></b>, similar to the existing BIP39 application. This a=
llows
wallets to  derive codex32 backups from BIP-0032 master keys.</p>
<p><span><b>Summary</b></span>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Application number: <span>93'</span></p>
</li><li>
Derivation path: <span>m/83696968'/93'/{hrp}'/{threshold}'/{n}'/{byte_lengt=
h}'/{id0}'/{id1}'/{id2}'/{id3}'/{index}'</span> <br /></li></ul><p>Codex32,
 defined in BIP-93, is a human-readable encoding with checksumming and=20
share indexing designed for SSS backups of BIP-0032 seeds. This PR=20
proposes a deterministic way to generate codex32 strings using BIP-85.</p>
<p><span><b>Rationale</b></span>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Mirrors the existing BIP-85 application for BIP-39.</p>
</li><li>
<p>Codex32 offers error correction, hand verification, identifiers, and sec=
ret sharing features compared to BIP-39.</p>
</li><li>
<p>Adds a standardized way for wallets to generate codex32 backups from BIP=
-85-derived entropy<br /></p>
</li><li>
<p>Test vectors and reference implementation are linked to in the PR.<br />=
</p></li></ul><p>
</p><p><b><span>Risks and alternatives</span></b>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Wallet adoption of codex32 is still limited, though a draft <a rel=3D"no=
opener nofollow" href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32652?utm_=
source=3Dchatgpt.com" target=3D"_blank">PR #32652</a> for importing codex32=
 strings to Bitcoin Core has support.</p></li><li>Codex32 implementers coul=
d use the BIP-85 dice application, but defining a direct application improv=
es interoperability.</li></ul><p>PR: <a rel=3D"noopener nofollow" href=3D"h=
ttps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32?ut=
m_source=3Dchatgpt.com" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/c=
ompare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32</a></p><p>Feedback is welcome.</p>=
Best regards,<br />Ben Westgate</blockquote></div></blockquote></div></bloc=
kquote></div></blockquote></div><br /><br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, September 2, 2025 at 4:37:20=
=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Javier Mateos wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding-left: 1ex;"><p>Hi Ben,</p>
<p>Thank you for implementing those changes so promptly. I reviewed the com=
mit and the updates address both concerns effectively.</p>
<p>These changes should ensure consistent implementations across different =
codex32 tooling that uses BIP-85 derivation.</p>
<p>

The proposal looks technically sound, follows BIP-85&#39;s established patt=
ern for applications, and is supported by comprehensive test vectors and a =
reference implementation.

</p>
<p>Looking forward to hearing feedback from other reviewers as well.</p>
<p>Best regards,<br>
Javier Mateos</p><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">El lunes, 1 de septiembre de 2025 a las 20:15:11 UTC-3, Ben Wes=
tgate escribi=C3=B3:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Hi Javier,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Thank you for your feedback.=
 </p><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">I added pseudocode for =
the character value selection. I added a column and row to the n table to c=
larify the t=3D=3D0 constraint on n, removed the notes and in the unshared =
secret section made the normative statement: &#39;When <span>threshold =3D=
=3D &quot;0&quot;</span>, <span>n</span> MUST be <i>1</i> and the output is=
 a codex32 secret.&#39;</p><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">I=
=E2=80=99ve updated the PR with these changes and would appreciate your rev=
iew.</p><p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Commit: <a href=3D"h=
ttps://github.com/BenWestgate/bips/commit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d12=
284ef02" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https:/=
/www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/BenWestgate/bips/com=
mit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d12284ef02&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1=
756910365438000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3qsUWheY6BxMUadoZrDe6x">https://github.com/=
BenWestgate/bips/commit/fa6e9788bf04d271792ed4ea89a112d12284ef02</a></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">Best regards,
Ben Westgate</p><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Monday, September 1, 2025 at 6:34:39=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5 Ja=
vier Mateos wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi =
Ben,<br><br>Thank you for your proposal to integrate BIP-0093 (codex32) as =
an application within BIP-0085<br><br>Reviewing the specification, =C2=A0I =
believe I see two areas where we could improve clarity for implementers:<br=
><br>1) The DRNG=E2=86=925-bit extraction process could benefit from explic=
it pseudocode to avoid implementation variations<br>2) The rule &#39;thresh=
old =3D=3D 0 implies n =3D=3D 1&#39; currently appears as a note but could =
be clearer as a normative requirement&quot;<br><br>Best Regards,<br>Javier =
Mateos<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">El domingo, 31 de agosto de 2025 a las 19:29:46 UTC-3, Ben Westgate es=
cribi=C3=B3:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p>Hello =
bitcoin-dev,</p>
<p>I=E2=80=99m Ben Westgate, a contributor interested in deterministic wall=
et backups and seed management.</p>
<p>Per BIP-0002, I propose listing <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bi=
ps/blob/master/bip-0093.mediawiki" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-=
saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://githu=
b.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0093.mediawiki&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;us=
t=3D1756910365438000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2iJ--7-2Umw85bmW-hwg3c"><strong>BIP-00=
93 (codex32)</strong></a> as an application of<br>
<strong><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0085.med=
iawiki" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://=
www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/mas=
ter/bip-0085.mediawiki&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756910365438000&amp;us=
g=3DAOvVaw1W58Ooy6GoTVAE8TLVRJ3y">BIP-0085 (Deterministic Entropy from BIP3=
2 Keychains)</a></strong>, similar to the existing BIP39 application. This =
allows
wallets to  derive codex32 backups from BIP-0032 master keys.</p>
<p><span><b>Summary</b></span>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Application number: <span>93&#39;</span></p>
</li><li>
Derivation path: <span>m/83696968&#39;/93&#39;/{hrp}&#39;/{threshold}&#39;/=
{n}&#39;/{byte_length}&#39;/{id0}&#39;/{id1}&#39;/{id2}&#39;/{id3}&#39;/{in=
dex}&#39;</span> <br></li></ul><p>Codex32, defined in BIP-93, is a human-re=
adable encoding with checksumming and share indexing designed for SSS backu=
ps of BIP-0032 seeds. This PR proposes a deterministic way to generate code=
x32 strings using BIP-85.</p>
<p><span><b>Rationale</b></span>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Mirrors the existing BIP-85 application for BIP-39.</p>
</li><li>
<p>Codex32 offers error correction, hand verification, identifiers, and sec=
ret sharing features compared to BIP-39.</p>
</li><li>
<p>Adds a standardized way for wallets to generate codex32 backups from BIP=
-85-derived entropy<br></p>
</li><li>
<p>Test vectors and reference implementation are linked to in the PR.<br></=
p></li></ul><p>
</p><p><b><span>Risks and alternatives</span></b>
</p><ul><li>
<p>Wallet adoption of codex32 is still limited, though a draft <a rel=3D"no=
opener nofollow" href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32652?utm_=
source=3Dchatgpt.com" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www=
.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/326=
52?utm_source%3Dchatgpt.com&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756910365438000&a=
mp;usg=3DAOvVaw38BevmlrYXF-1rAp_FaoEB">PR #32652</a> for importing codex32 =
strings to Bitcoin Core has support.</p></li><li>Codex32 implementers could=
 use the BIP-85 dice application, but defining a direct application improve=
s interoperability.</li></ul><p>PR: <a rel=3D"noopener nofollow" href=3D"ht=
tps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32?utm=
_source=3Dchatgpt.com" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://ww=
w.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/ma=
ster...BenWestgate:bips:codex32?utm_source%3Dchatgpt.com&amp;source=3Dgmail=
&amp;ust=3D1756910365438000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw34ZmKh-6ePpq_qKwpQVqOs">https:/=
/github.com/bitcoin/bips/compare/master...BenWestgate:bips:codex32</a></p><=
p>Feedback is welcome.</p>Best regards,<br>Ben Westgate</blockquote></div><=
/blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/4064eb1b-f430-4ccd-958e-aa03c653439dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
ev/4064eb1b-f430-4ccd-958e-aa03c653439dn%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br />

------=_Part_390005_364410716.1756860247256--

------=_Part_390004_422932088.1756860247256--