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From: Michael Dubrovsky <mike@powx.org>
Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 11:30:36 -0400
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To: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future
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Ah sorry, I didn't realize this was, in fact, a different thread! :)

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:07 AM Michael Dubrovsky <mike@powx.org> wrote:

> Folks, I suggest we keep the discussion to PoW, oPoW, and the BIP itself.
> PoS, VDFs, and so on are interesting but I guess there are other threads
> going on these topics already where they would be relevant.
>
> Also, it's important to distinguish between oPoW and these other
> "alternatives" to Hashcash. oPoW is a true Proof of Work that doesn't alter
> the core game theory or security assumptions of Hashcash and actually
> contains SHA (can be SHA3, SHA256, etc hash is interchangeable).
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 4:55 PM Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> 1. i never suggested vdf's to replace pow.
>>
>> 2. my suggestion was specifically *in the context of* a working
>> proof-of-burn protocol
>>
>> - vdfs used only for timing (not block height)
>> - blind-burned coins of a specific age used to replace proof of work
>> - the required "work" per block would simply be a competition to
>> acquire rewards, and so miners would have to burn coins, well in
>> advance, and hope that their burned coins got rewarded in some far
>> future
>> - the point of burned coins is to mimic, in every meaningful way, the
>> value gained from proof of work... without some of the security
>> drawbacks
>> - the miner risks losing all of his burned coins (like all miners risk
>> losing their work in each block)
>> - new burns can't be used
>> - old burns age out (like ASICs do)
>> - other requirements on burns might be needed to properly mirror the
>> properties of PoW and the incentives Bitcoin uses to mine honestly.
>>
>> 3. i do believe it is *possible* that a "burned coin + vdf system"
>> might be more secure in the long run, and that if the entire space
>> agreed that such an endeavor was worthwhile, a test net could be spun
>> up, and a hard-fork could be initiated.
>>
>> 4. i would never suggest such a thing unless i believed it was
>> possible that consensus was possible.  so no, this is not an "alt
>> coin"
>>
>> On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:02 AM Zac Greenwood <zachgrw@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi ZmnSCPxj,
>> >
>> > Please note that I am not suggesting VDFs as a means to save energy,
>> but solely as a means to make the time between blocks more constant.
>> >
>> > Zac
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 12:42, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Good morning Zac,
>> >>
>> >> > VDFs might enable more constant block times, for instance by having
>> a two-step PoW:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. Use a VDF that takes say 9 minutes to resolve (VDF being subject
>> to difficulty adjustments similar to the as-is). As per the property of
>> VDFs, miners are able show proof of work.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2. Use current PoW mechanism with lower difficulty so finding a
>> block takes 1 minute on average, again subject to as-is difficulty
>> adjustments.
>> >> >
>> >> > As a result, variation in block times will be greatly reduced.
>> >>
>> >> As I understand it, another weakness of VDFs is that they are not
>> inherently progress-free (their sequential nature prevents that; they are
>> inherently progress-requiring).
>> >>
>> >> Thus, a miner which focuses on improving the amount of energy that it
>> can pump into the VDF circuitry (by overclocking and freezing the
>> circuitry), could potentially get into a winner-takes-all situation,
>> possibly leading to even *worse* competition and even *more* energy
>> consumption.
>> >> After all, if you can start mining 0.1s faster than the competition,
>> that is a 0.1s advantage where *only you* can mine *in the entire world*.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> ZmnSCPxj
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Dubrovsky
> Founder; PoWx
> www.PoWx.org <http://www.powx.org/>
>


-- 
Michael Dubrovsky
Founder; PoWx
www.PoWx.org <http://www.powx.org/>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Ah sorry, I didn&#39;t realize this was, in fact, a differ=
ent thread! :)</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:07 AM Michael Dubrovsky &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mike@powx.org">mike@powx.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Folks, I suggest=
 we keep the discussion to PoW, oPoW, and the BIP itself. PoS, VDFs, and so=
 on are interesting but I guess there are other threads going on these topi=
cs already where they would be relevant.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Also, it&=
#39;s important=C2=A0to distinguish between oPoW and these other &quot;alte=
rnatives&quot; to Hashcash. oPoW is a true Proof of Work that doesn&#39;t a=
lter the core game theory or security assumptions of Hashcash and actually =
contains SHA (can be SHA3, SHA256, etc hash is interchangeable).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Mike=C2=A0</div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 4:=
55 PM Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">1. i never suggested vdf&#39;s to replace pow.<br>
<br>
2. my suggestion was specifically *in the context of* a working<br>
proof-of-burn protocol<br>
<br>
- vdfs used only for timing (not block height)<br>
- blind-burned coins of a specific age used to replace proof of work<br>
- the required &quot;work&quot; per block would simply be a competition to<=
br>
acquire rewards, and so miners would have to burn coins, well in<br>
advance, and hope that their burned coins got rewarded in some far<br>
future<br>
- the point of burned coins is to mimic, in every meaningful way, the<br>
value gained from proof of work... without some of the security<br>
drawbacks<br>
- the miner risks losing all of his burned coins (like all miners risk<br>
losing their work in each block)<br>
- new burns can&#39;t be used<br>
- old burns age out (like ASICs do)<br>
- other requirements on burns might be needed to properly mirror the<br>
properties of PoW and the incentives Bitcoin uses to mine honestly.<br>
<br>
3. i do believe it is *possible* that a &quot;burned coin + vdf system&quot=
;<br>
might be more secure in the long run, and that if the entire space<br>
agreed that such an endeavor was worthwhile, a test net could be spun<br>
up, and a hard-fork could be initiated.<br>
<br>
4. i would never suggest such a thing unless i believed it was<br>
possible that consensus was possible.=C2=A0 so no, this is not an &quot;alt=
<br>
coin&quot;<br>
<br>
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:02 AM Zac Greenwood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zachgr=
w@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zachgrw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi ZmnSCPxj,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that I am not suggesting VDFs as a means to save energy, b=
ut solely as a means to make the time between blocks more constant.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Zac<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 12:42, ZmnSCPxj &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@=
protonmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Good morning Zac,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; VDFs might enable more constant block times, for instance by =
having a two-step PoW:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 1. Use a VDF that takes say 9 minutes to resolve (VDF being s=
ubject to difficulty adjustments similar to the as-is). As per the property=
 of VDFs, miners are able show proof of work.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; 2. Use current PoW mechanism with lower difficulty so finding=
 a block takes 1 minute on average, again subject to as-is difficulty adjus=
tments.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; As a result, variation in block times will be greatly reduced=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As I understand it, another weakness of VDFs is that they are not =
inherently progress-free (their sequential nature prevents that; they are i=
nherently progress-requiring).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thus, a miner which focuses on improving the amount of energy that=
 it can pump into the VDF circuitry (by overclocking and freezing the circu=
itry), could potentially get into a winner-takes-all situation, possibly le=
ading to even *worse* competition and even *more* energy consumption.<br>
&gt;&gt; After all, if you can start mining 0.1s faster than the competitio=
n, that is a 0.1s advantage where *only you* can mine *in the entire world*=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; ZmnSCPxj<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small">Mich=
ael Dubrovsky<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">Founder; PoWx</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-size:small"><a href=3D"http://www.powx.org/" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">www.PoWx.org</a></div></div></div></div=
></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:small">Michael Dubrovsky<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:sm=
all">Founder; PoWx</div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><a href=3D"http://ww=
w.powx.org/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">www.PoWx.org<=
/a></div></div></div></div></div>

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