path: root/04/371dfed67d23ce178062c22ca79376cfb68bd4

Return-Path: <earonesty@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31229C0037
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  2 Jan 2024 14:32:44 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09822817A4
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  2 Jan 2024 14:32:44 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 09822817A4
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com
 header.i=@gmail-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
 header.s=20230601 header.b=ne/ca34+
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id K7g20BUJaiYn
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  2 Jan 2024 14:32:42 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29])
 by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4F2D8179B
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  2 Jan 2024 14:32:42 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org A4F2D8179B
Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id
 3f1490d57ef6-dbdb6ea67a4so837376276.0
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 02 Jan 2024 06:32:42 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=gmail-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1704205961; x=1704810761;
 darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org; 
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=1l+umYUdFUrTjqqLfitakiUNT/5k4VpATSdvLBAEDws=;
 b=ne/ca34+d29Z/GgsK7IcaftAMZ17kaMKP029Z9jwf1Jdm8biVSGC6fG4mGVAaxQsfG
 C/V5ETewwRjUmXjGr+iNDvTfPRqw2ze4cQpoKrWiotJVD5Smbot8lobK5b0q5Bc7oqvg
 7I1AzgM6nnce7fVLXjyGSjlSSfQaWMq2aTKWNgQ8Et5j/u46a/SNaR01J7tfQlJZpIHx
 5JlGREeB9ahlHTWU9Ao65LGjt0hmlfmQ++ahSJXjOT8a/YRvNxbhR1H/1f933i1hnLhx
 dEXsvfl+IkW0nme3HyEQ+ZLu4B+otxQx5RvTM3orEOfgKJekxuQhb+JtYSWWkj57Bw5g
 jgDA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704205961; x=1704810761;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=1l+umYUdFUrTjqqLfitakiUNT/5k4VpATSdvLBAEDws=;
 b=qnewFoMOfIQPoKNDA6coZ6OMar6/+9XKCs6kSvXeDNuZtFYTMCQTNBn6xqUcMBNxnd
 uzglIPkJ4X21GYzFILpnkOZSJMtq/w5wmPH28QnylUr4D1mq1Gc3m1RdTxIstx+HRRUx
 5BiuP/wRCEkh2qpoDRgjUdMZP19N48+sx6e9JgBtDo1BR474wPA4iLdqu+i5OJTwBXsO
 kbPRWwHfaookm2h3omeQ2ElSjqe2TqHqUvJWv2YK0aUKAsE+0FZlVFCEf/6yP+8hJtnQ
 h/a3v5I/u6+6E0wkIzv+HR5Y36tBbyqYGFVN6LbG/QCv6HqkPTYwtdzzfRuzJNuwdJ3n
 zyEA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyHNTkK15SWwSk5dW1lmGGTpgMzSuhS38l0JKZxw5hRVUTRocVd
 3atIARMEGmM6HgSeX57lwTGQG/HTfbu9ccFkZmP+/Ms=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH6S8m8W9htq3ceCHvgoMmDO30/saSuHt5nIAINhCiSzk3RN+Tkv6Xwmj53LrG5vLiPnpbIXUKfLOSrmW5YWCY=
X-Received: by 2002:a25:df07:0:b0:dbd:5ad0:8a34 with SMTP id
 w7-20020a25df07000000b00dbd5ad08a34mr16018270ybg.5.1704205961314; Tue, 02 Jan
 2024 06:32:41 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <39ecOLU7GJPGc0zWZmGuaj-a4ANySfoRjwxoUoxP480kfRRc_fsPl9MvZDC-0vSfrO3jYraHVUyxWpcg7AFHRJkEJUERYdHZlzimOwql1j0=@protonmail.com>
 <2e113332-2cfd-73ec-0368-136728ceb31a@dashjr.org>
 <Tp6LkEd_YZUe-0sI-EXRmGTaq4Om2RSKIOUsXS0GIsYW5z_MFnicWPz2hB1KZYJ1mihv0KrJT8DmnuDr1RCcIpFM9jCOy82BvRJySkO7Im8=@protonmail.com>
 <fcOFuPPZB9Cn6nuIkAcvbECmYqISZQ-5O2hQGli-F8FOK68etbaGNlrMT4OuPSBFI9VjaBe_izZEgezy8KZbjeBIaO_QPNfwrF61IorSP44=@protonmail.com>
 <ZY/PYiO2Yg3FNiYV@erisian.com.au>
 <CAJowKg+VR5sYkxOtfeMeaW_ZiU8=6YC_T-21jSBk9VuFO1739g@mail.gmail.com>
 <JjjvS5JDzMsm_gr9M1li4rhxJbQroFXfC8CvIYkHsncrYTB9K723Ds68KnPPm7rKyDgvVdMcUoeg8QQgRKlPsaOSvp5vc6OjB_-TiQZ5iWE=@protonmail.com>
 <CAJowKg+CQWiHxcJLPE7bHbfwGo3WGQSqBNAQU-aEyCJH8YGO3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <Zzpp9sp69_QmkUre4YUawBxOLECIfHHUf_OoD8UXXZ8Xwtmr5R62_rlGV2iwLivkST-vWusc0X9horY9qHEHKP2g4GR2ppCAuIE57VANUP0=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <Zzpp9sp69_QmkUre4YUawBxOLECIfHHUf_OoD8UXXZ8Xwtmr5R62_rlGV2iwLivkST-vWusc0X9horY9qHEHKP2g4GR2ppCAuIE57VANUP0=@protonmail.com>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2024 09:32:29 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJowKgK4nQWjaJ96P-E1yABCVOnTxyAGEwuYFUa9WRD8=6U4TA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2c495060df75e89"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 15:49:46 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Swift Activation - CTV
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 14:32:44 -0000

--000000000000f2c495060df75e89
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, Jan 2, 2024, 8:52 AM Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>
wrote:

> In the interests of time I'll just pick two to respond to but I don't
> agree with any of your points.
>
> > Covenants allow trustless utxos sharing and also are needed for
> vaulting. The numerous use cases are documented, built out and on signet to
> my knowledge. Check out utxos.org for a good list
>
> Your knowledge is incorrect. As far as I know in the getting on for 2
> years since the first CTV activation talk/attempt literally no one has
> built out a CTV use case and demonstrated it on signet with the possible
> exception of James O'Beirne's OP_VAULT which requires other new opcodes in
> addition to CTV.
>

Nice example, thanks.

>
> > 4. "Best tool for the job" is not the bar. "Safe for all" and "useful
> for some" is the bar.
>

This is the bar, ant CTV has passed it with vaulting alone.

If you want to avoid a chain split with an activation attempt (it is
> possible you don't care but if you do) you have to address concerns others
> have with a particular proposal.
>

You haven't mentioned one safety concern.  It's hard to tell if you have
any.  There is, of course, the elephant in the room with CTV that is a true
concern that nobody talks about.

The real danger of CTV isn't whether it's the best, and we know it's
nonrecursive.  And we can use BIP8, so that isn't an issue either.

And we already have shitcoins on BTC, so sapio shouldn't be your issue (
https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio)

Why exactly is your problem?  You yourself have admitted it's useful for
vaulting, and for reducing the cost of lightning onboarding, even though
you ignored the dozens of other use cases enumerated in detail on utxos.org
and elsewhere.

--000000000000f2c495060df75e89
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 2, 2024, 8:52 AM Michael Folkson &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@protonmail.com">michaelfolkson@protonmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-si=
ze:14px">In the interests of time I&#39;ll just pick two to respond to but =
I don&#39;t agree with any of your points.</div><div style=3D"font-size:14p=
x"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;line-height:=
1.5"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;=
line-height:1.5">&gt; Covenants allow trustless utxos sharing and also are =
needed for vaulting. The numerous use cases are documented, built out and o=
n signet to my knowledge. Check out<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http://utx=
os.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener noreferrer" style=3D"text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank">utxos.org</a><span>=C2=A0</span>for a g=
ood list</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;l=
ine-height:1.5"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:system-ui,=
sans-serif;line-height:1.5">Your knowledge is incorrect. As far as I know i=
n the getting on for 2 years since the first CTV activation talk/attempt li=
terally no one has built out a CTV use case and demonstrated it on signet w=
ith the possible exception of James O&#39;Beirne&#39;s OP_VAULT which requi=
res other new opcodes in addition to CTV. </div></div></blockquote></div></=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Nice example, thanks.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div style=3D"font-size:14px"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sys=
tem-ui,sans-serif;line-height:1.5"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"fon=
t-family:system-ui,sans-serif;line-height:1.5">&gt;=C2=A04. &quot;Best tool=
 for the job&quot; is not the bar. &quot;Safe for all&quot; and &quot;usefu=
l for some&quot; is the bar.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This is the bar, ant CTV has passed i=
t with vaulting alone.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font=
-size:14px"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;lin=
e-height:1.5">If you want to avoid a chain split with an activation attempt=
 (it is possible you don&#39;t care but if you do) you have to address conc=
erns others have with a particular proposal.</div></div></blockquote></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You haven&#39;t mention=
ed one safety concern.=C2=A0 It&#39;s hard to tell if you have any.=C2=A0 T=
here is, of course, the elephant in the room with CTV that is a true concer=
n that nobody talks about.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">The real danger of CTV isn&#39;t whether it&#39;s the best, =
and we know it&#39;s nonrecursive.=C2=A0 And we can use BIP8, so that isn&#=
39;t an issue either.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">An=
d we already have shitcoins on BTC, so sapio shouldn&#39;t be your issue (<=
a href=3D"https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio">https://github.com/sapio-lan=
g/sapio</a>)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Why exactly=
 is your problem?=C2=A0 You yourself have admitted it&#39;s useful for vaul=
ting, and for reducing the cost of lightning onboarding, even though you ig=
nored the dozens of other use cases enumerated in detail on <a href=3D"http=
://utxos.org">utxos.org</a> and elsewhere.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div></div>

--000000000000f2c495060df75e89--