1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
|
Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <dennison@dennisonbertram.com>) id 1UnqUf-0008Tg-BE
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 +0000
X-ACL-Warn:
Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44])
by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1UnqUb-00034b-NQ
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 +0000
Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m15so1222414wgh.11
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=google.com; s=20120113;
h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type
:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date
:to:x-gm-message-state;
bh=0afxx2GGqdts3AM+l2U5UCfHlqMVNOs3LbF5YqWnhQw=;
b=KpBbQ30zUGVf8FeNc52RVHfMp9R2vr/XjTqEphegKZWzro1hy1snNpb8qFqzhF1HqY
xM0Xk9i+6JimFH4PZk+zazUOxJvEZidJ172yyXkOwfByXu64jIJayVbElojw1FC6Z9WH
34cJ0MRcPt2ZUbHNDBjSMADacisZaiWYefnk8chhUnIHZKNEMke3NB12BVrStQyQMVAW
3XrsPA6TVDmQmXvPRjNgRYX2TOTto12EddASK5thNR46ixcrVSo4Iv93paoFYouHlRHw
ZkPp2xnPjQ475LOgcxaZbt8W+i+Y/hgMz4gWXB3aT4jsjufOnyVOsFW4oogzq6WrACr9
Ih9w==
X-Received: by 10.180.72.230 with SMTP id g6mr1048212wiv.8.1371302763201;
Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.180]
(host130-104-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it.
[82.60.104.130])
by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ay7sm9485271wib.9.2013.06.15.06.26.01
for <multiple recipients>
(version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:02 -0700 (PDT)
References: <20130519132359.GA12366@netbook.cypherspace.org>
<CAKaEYhJfrszqC=7L9inkSH5+9nzUzRLx6Oq+C6bA+fDXXLfh8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
In-Reply-To: <CAKaEYhJfrszqC=7L9inkSH5+9nzUzRLx6Oq+C6bA+fDXXLfh8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <B19431AC-47B9-4BB2-9AA0-28C114556A01@dennisonbertram.com>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A523)
From: Dennison Bertram <dennison@dennisonbertram.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:26:01 +0200
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQloT08mtrKElx9CdtWr6i8QG+02nKgezmPsVZjV8hVrNKZl4qKVbDXZ0p6RZV2GOXILPuM/
X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars
X-Headers-End: 1UnqUb-00034b-NQ
Cc: Bitcoin-Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] is there a way to do bitcoin-staging?
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 -0000
--Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why use ripple and not just use the testnet?=20
The advantageous of allowing testnet to be used as an alt-coin are That Non s=
tandard transactions can be tested in a pseudo live environment where becaus=
e the coins have some nominal value people are incentivized to try and steal=
and come up with clever ways of gamin the system. This sort of knowledge wo=
uld be invaluable if non standard transactions are ever going to become a re=
ality on main net.=20
It also allows developers a chance to develop in advance new technologies an=
d services that currently won't run on bitcoin main net but might be enabled=
in the future at which point they can switch over to main net. Additionally=
without any development happening with non standard transactions as current=
ly there is no economic incentive , there might be a strong argument to neve=
r bother enabling non standard transactions as the risk of doing so might no=
t justify in many people's minds the benefits as if no one develops anythin=
g in advance most users might not find the theoretical possibilities worth t=
he risk, thus permanently hobbling the full potential of satoshis idea. Rath=
er if testnet were allowed to act as an alt coin something cool might be dev=
eloped that the main net users might desire enough to overcome the inertia o=
f the status quo.=20
Additionally it should be considered that the time in the future when non st=
andard transactions might be enabled might be so far in the future when bit=
coin has hit mass adoption and changing anything might require far more poli=
tical negotiations between users and devs then currently. Meaning that perha=
ps much more proof of functionality and value as well as testing might e req=
uired.=20
Dennison
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 19 May 2013 15:23, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:
>> Is there a way to experiment with new features - eg committed coins - tha=
t
>> doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impo=
se
>> a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk=
?
>>=20
>> eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it
>> bitcoin-staging? where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the
>> mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but n=
o
>> native mining. and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to=
>> move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1
>> cryptographically, no exchange).
>>=20
>> Did anyone figure anything like that out? Seems vaguely doable and
>> maybe productive. The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new=
>> feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coin=
s
>> on bitcoin-staging.
>>=20
>> Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. I mean a real live system,=
>> with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitco=
ins
>> parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. In this way something
>> potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to th=
e
>> main bitcoin network. eg particularly defenses against
>>=20
>> It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because=
>> some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest
>> without more real activity.
>>=20
>> Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them af=
ter
>> extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early
>> adopters).
>=20
> Interesting idea. I wonder if ripple could be used to set up a transfer s=
ystem between the 'main' and 'staging' systems ...
> =20
>>=20
>> Adam
>>=20
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete
>> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and
>> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls
>> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
>=20
> Build for Windows Store.
>=20
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Why use ripple and not just use the te=
stnet? </div><div><br></div><div>The advantageous of allowing testnet t=
o be used as an alt-coin are That Non standard transactions can be test=
ed in a pseudo live environment where because the coins have some nominal va=
lue people are incentivized to try and steal and come up with clever ways of=
gamin the system. This sort of knowledge would be invaluable if non standar=
d transactions are ever going to become a reality on main net. </div><d=
iv><br></div><div>It also allows developers a chance to develop in advance n=
ew technologies and services that currently won't run on bitcoin main net bu=
t might be enabled in the future at which point they can switch over to main=
net. Additionally without any development happening with non standard trans=
actions as currently there is no economic incentive , there might be a stron=
g argument to never bother enabling non standard transactions as the risk of=
doing so might not justify in many people's minds the benefits as if n=
o one develops anything in advance most users might not find the theor=
etical possibilities worth the risk, thus permanently hobbling the full pote=
ntial of satoshis idea. Rather if testnet were allowed to act as an alt coin=
something cool might be developed that the main net users might desire enou=
gh to overcome the inertia of the status quo. </div><div><br></div><div=
>Additionally it should be considered that the time in the future when non s=
tandard transactions might be enabled might be so far in the future wh=
en bitcoin has hit mass adoption and changing anything might require far mor=
e political negotiations between users and devs then currently. Meaning that=
perhaps much more proof of functionality and value as well as testing might=
e required. </div><div><br></div><div>Dennison</div><div><br>Sent from=
my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Melvin Carvalho <<a=
href=3D"mailto:melvincarvalho@gmail.com">melvincarvalho@gmail.com</a>> w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 19 May 2013 15:23=
, Adam Back <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">adam@cypherspace.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Is there a way to experiment with new features=
- eg committed coins - that<br>
doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose<=
br>
a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk?<b=
r>
<br>
eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it<br>
bitcoin-staging? where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the=
<br>
mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no<b=
r>
native mining. and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin t=
o<br>
move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1<br>
cryptographically, no exchange).<br>
<br>
Did anyone figure anything like that out? Seems vaguely doable and<br>=
maybe productive. The only people with coins at risk of defects in a n=
ew<br>
feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins<b=
r>
on bitcoin-staging.<br>
<br>
Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. I mean a real live syste=
m,<br>
with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitcoins=
<br>
parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. In this way something<=
br>
potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the<b=
r>
main bitcoin network. eg particularly defenses against<br>
<br>
It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because<br=
>
some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest<br>
without more real activity.<br>
<br>
Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them after=
<br>
extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early<br>
adopters).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Interesting idea. I won=
der if ripple could be used to set up a transfer system between the 'main' a=
nd 'staging' systems ...<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
<br>
Adam<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br>
AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete<br>
security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and<br>=
efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls<br>=
from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf=
.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develop=
ment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development"=
target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-deve=
lopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>--------------------=
----------------------------------------------------------</span><br><span>T=
his <a href=3D"http://SF.net">SF.net</a> email is sponsored by Windows:</spa=
n><br><span></span><br><span>Build for Windows Store.</span><br><span></span=
><br><span><a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev">http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/windows-dev2dev</a></span></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bit=
coin-development mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-deve=
lopment@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bit=
coin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-devel=
opment</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68--
|