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| author | Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org> | 2017-12-21 16:30:52 -0800 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-12-22 00:31:03 +0000 |
| commit | a70fc3d2fe66b614087f3d27d80f34c144a33790 (patch) | |
| tree | 2942465f4421923278615a18f1ae2f6e365f9e8d /16 | |
| parent | 2be64790bdaabc37159f3a7a27925002a53fda8a (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-a70fc3d2fe66b614087f3d27d80f34c144a33790.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-a70fc3d2fe66b614087f3d27d80f34c144a33790.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward
Diffstat (limited to '16')
| -rw-r--r-- | 16/25662b83bf52d27be246f58a318ef22b9749e1 | 375 |
1 files changed, 375 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/16/25662b83bf52d27be246f58a318ef22b9749e1 b/16/25662b83bf52d27be246f58a318ef22b9749e1 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..d6caa4821 --- /dev/null +++ b/16/25662b83bf52d27be246f58a318ef22b9749e1 @@ -0,0 +1,375 @@ +Return-Path: <mark@friedenbach.org> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05C16D02 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:31:03 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-pf0-f171.google.com (mail-pf0-f171.google.com + [209.85.192.171]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C058439 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:31:01 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-pf0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c204so14632347pfc.13 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:31:01 -0800 (PST) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=friedenbach-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; + h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; + bh=5uwO0ICPri5hHMuVarFOBtZu/SgLZDAUAlIej5JN6bA=; + b=wyAinqZ8THRMmqVZkXF1nLu3pbqcUeZw2ntEU5joVFH6cILhR4yxA1cLvco63XLYLw + cnOy2BruqUPB4y8vfl9RxqxGy0o0hqWtnRTtv38zkCAgdlSKrtrDkcushg/j1nVIVarc + E50HeuEFEEhxBT8PRin8MOidti0bb6BkjIF+JZy+plkYjZ5v7V1X9o04JJo8BzPGlUSD + lJqV+iLfEgNgp5jprQqmsP2pxjrq1Zy4nwRzv3h+EKht7d9Xb5UlEeikaLIrTkHoFPem + 8frcI8lnJR34QwmzBNwBeH8kn//UoQVeqIqAGNnhx8vIpvixyGkkiFQkRMfaelpTidO+ + lfuw== +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20161025; + h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to + :in-reply-to:message-id; + bh=5uwO0ICPri5hHMuVarFOBtZu/SgLZDAUAlIej5JN6bA=; + b=FXOwsigi45JE05mpzFe5us3nHJbqenFSkXkOBSk34GLrM0X3F24fi3fWOj4c9we0Yd + c/eVGY7CGB5EoR5l1ACJFL29JLQQ/VUT1jGKL05ZIgiAYvVx8ZyJdOzkmbRB6ogpK9VB + EHoRV7MIzWM+qM4+pmJkQihejvwJ6AFJAUGhpqboKlnmzfzDEpAED2zD02BV5CKUPTjA + r0iz4br4C6bP1bSlgaJduTGIfkC1T5nGGnx1AWFPiGytVUiLy2p5vXLlgF9wP08RtB+Q + padSszuVEERVmDK7dwxrkxWPCMkGtR5Q72j+vLVz1m78l2QVA8ELlGLmz5CiJnOPS+yy + 0gnA== +X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLCrliIDw42dyl+pzuWHpoEGS/0GnlUX7XGGVCOCTEFvwTZ0yKr + VvIpBBzKYNFOENtaXKypDo0PKQ== +X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBout+eqeiEP8ptWSClqdFrUGk/vDElsH9iX7YCPIUFFqiUyH5uW71uqELvVKWCAxlhukwpqgtQ== +X-Received: by 10.101.85.197 with SMTP id k5mr4798001pgs.17.1513902660310; + Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:31:00 -0800 (PST) +Received: from [10.0.0.3] (c-73-170-162-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. + [73.170.162.66]) + by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g7sm1211319pgo.83.2017.12.21.16.30.56 + (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:30:59 -0800 (PST) +From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_ABBCBD24-257C-48A4-A387-3C7819B2C073" +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) +Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:30:52 -0800 +References: <CAKaEYhJ0vC8wf9yYjovfoZLB-TTvEnVB2a3mkC-YDzmnLwtz1Q@mail.gmail.com> + <CAAS2fgQSNdzuiPS3AZ_TjQ2OvkhYJ3ZJUBo7ovP6_O2snuwEMg@mail.gmail.com> + <CAAeo5+gYrr=KaqrLibmAoUWG4F_EdR5SQTE9U6-jsYYVT23kTQ@mail.gmail.com> +To: Paul Iverson <piverson1024@gmail.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +In-Reply-To: <CAAeo5+gYrr=KaqrLibmAoUWG4F_EdR5SQTE9U6-jsYYVT23kTQ@mail.gmail.com> +Message-Id: <9EB76B68-E8AC-4BE8-8279-BA18033CBF9F@friedenbach.org> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URIBL_RED autolearn=ham + version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:31:03 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_ABBCBD24-257C-48A4-A387-3C7819B2C073 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=us-ascii + +Every transaction is replace-by-fee capable already. Opt-in replace by = +fee as specified in BIP 125 is a fiction that held sway only while the = +income from fees or fee replacement was so much smaller than subsidy. + +> On Dec 21, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Paul Iverson via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +>=20 +> I agree with Greg. What is happening is a cause for celebration: it = +is the manifestation of our long-desired fee market in action. That = +people are willing to pay upwards of $100 per transaction shows the huge = +demand to transact on the world's most secure ledger. This is what = +success looks like, folks! +>=20 +> Now that BTC is being phased out as a means of payment nearly = +everywhere (e.g., Steam dropping BTC as a payment option) (to be = +replaced with the more-suitable LN when ready), I'd propose that we = +address the stuck transaction issue by making replace-by-fee (RBF) = +ubiquitous. Why not make every transaction RBF by default, and then = +encourage via outreach and education other wallet developers to do the = +same? =20 +>=20 +> The frustration with BTC today is less so the high-fees (people = +realize on-chain transactions in a secure decentralized ledger are = +necessarily costly) but by the feeling of helplessness when their = +transaction is stuck. Being able to easily bump a transaction's fee for = +users who are in a hurry would go a long way to improving the user = +experience. =20 +>=20 +> Paul. +>=20 +>=20 +> On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: +> Personally, I'm pulling out the champaign that market behaviour is +> indeed producing activity levels that can pay for security without +> inflation, and also producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize +> consensus progress as the subsidy declines. +>=20 +> I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even +> challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should +> look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than +> just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since most +> users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the +> second order effects from increased capacity. +>=20 +> As Jameson Lopp notes, more can be done for education though-- perhaps +> that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there. +>=20 +> But even independently of segwit we can also look at other inefficient +> transaction styles: uncompressed keys, unconfirmed chaining instead of +> send many batching, fee overpayment, etc... and the message there is +> similar. +>=20 +> I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate +> congestion is contrived traffic. To the extent that it's true there +> also should be some relief there soon as the funding for that runs +> out, in addition to expected traffic patterns, difficulty changes, +> etc. +>=20 +>=20 +> On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev +> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: +> > I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in = +the long +> > term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been that = +fees +> > would replace the block reward. +> > +> > At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but = +have now +> > reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon +> > +> > https://fork.lol/reward/feepct <https://fork.lol/reward/feepct> +> > +> > While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I = +think there +> > is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for = +some use +> > cases, at this point in the adoption curve. +> > +> > Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point +> > +> > http://segwit.party/charts/ <http://segwit.party/charts/> +> > +> > Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though = +it's +> > quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder = +if this +> > is of concern to some. +> > +> > https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h = +<https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h> +> > +> > I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. = +Though +> > if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be interesting = +to hear +> > thoughts. +> > +> > _______________________________________________ +> > bitcoin-dev mailing list +> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = +<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev> +> > +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = +<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev> +>=20 +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev + + +--Apple-Mail=_ABBCBD24-257C-48A4-A387-3C7819B2C073 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=us-ascii + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = +charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = +-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Every= + transaction is replace-by-fee capable already. Opt-in replace by fee as = +specified in BIP 125 is a fiction that held sway only while the income = +from fees or fee replacement was so much smaller than subsidy.<br = +class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = +class=3D"">On Dec 21, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Paul Iverson via bitcoin-dev = +<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br = +class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D"">I agree with Greg. What is happening is a cause for = +celebration: it is the manifestation of our long-desired fee market in = +action. That people are willing to pay upwards of $100 per = +transaction shows the huge demand to transact on the world's most secure = +ledger. This is what success looks like, folks!<div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now that BTC is being phased out as a = +means of payment nearly everywhere (e.g., Steam dropping BTC as a = +payment option) (to be replaced with the more-suitable LN when ready), = +I'd propose that we address the stuck transaction issue by making = +replace-by-fee (RBF) ubiquitous. Why not make every transaction = +RBF by default, and then encourage via outreach and education other = +wallet developers to do the same? </div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The frustration with BTC today is less = +so the high-fees (people realize on-chain transactions in a secure = +decentralized ledger are necessarily costly) but by the feeling of = +helplessness when their transaction is stuck. Being able to easily = +bump a transaction's fee for users who are in a hurry would go a long = +way to improving the user experience. </div><div = +class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">Paul.</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = +class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:44 PM, = +Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>></span> = +wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = +0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Personally, I'm = +pulling out the champaign that market behaviour is<br class=3D""> +indeed producing activity levels that can pay for security without<br = +class=3D""> +inflation, and also producing fee paying backlogs needed to stabilize<br = +class=3D""> +consensus progress as the subsidy declines.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +I'd also personally prefer to pay lower fees-- current levels even<br = +class=3D""> +challenge my old comparison with wire transfer costs-- but we should<br = +class=3D""> +look most strongly at difficult to forge market signals rather than<br = +class=3D""> +just claims-- segwit usage gives us a pretty good indicator since = +most<br class=3D""> +users would get a 50-70% fee reduction without even considering the<br = +class=3D""> +second order effects from increased capacity.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +As Jameson Lopp notes, more can be done for education though-- = +perhaps<br class=3D""> +that market signal isn't efficient yet. But we should get it there.<br = +class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +But even independently of segwit we can also look at other = +inefficient<br class=3D""> +transaction styles: uncompressed keys, unconfirmed chaining instead = +of<br class=3D""> +send many batching, fee overpayment, etc... and the message there is<br = +class=3D""> +similar.<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +I've also seen some evidence that a portion of the current high rate<br = +class=3D""> +congestion is contrived traffic. To the extent that it's true there<br = +class=3D""> +also should be some relief there soon as the funding for that runs<br = +class=3D""> +out, in addition to expected traffic patterns, difficulty changes,<br = +class=3D""> +etc.<br class=3D""> +<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev<br = +class=3D""> +<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>> = +wrote:<br class=3D""> +> I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in = +the long<br class=3D""> +> term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always = +been that fees<br class=3D""> +> would replace the block reward.<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but = +have now<br class=3D""> +> reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> <a href=3D"https://fork.lol/reward/feepct" rel=3D"noreferrer" = +target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://fork.lol/reward/feepct</a><br = +class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I = +think there<br class=3D""> +> is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for = +some use<br class=3D""> +> cases, at this point in the adoption curve.<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point<br = +class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> <a href=3D"http://segwit.party/charts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" = +target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://segwit.party/charts/</a><br = +class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though = +it's<br class=3D""> +> quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I = +wonder if this<br class=3D""> +> is of concern to some.<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> <a href=3D"https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.<wbr = +class=3D"">de/queue/more/#24h</a><br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly = +FYI. Though<br class=3D""> +> if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be = +interesting to hear<br class=3D""> +> thoughts.<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">> = +______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br = +class=3D""> +> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""> +> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><br = +class=3D""> +> <a = +href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr = +class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr class=3D"">dev</a><br = +class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br = +class=3D""> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><br = +class=3D""> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"= + rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr = +class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr class=3D"">dev</a><br = +class=3D""> +</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div> +_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev = +mailing list<br class=3D""><a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= +br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>= + +--Apple-Mail=_ABBCBD24-257C-48A4-A387-3C7819B2C073-- + |