path: root/transcripts/natalism/2023/michael-anton.mdwn

2023-12-01

Michael Antom

I am a college professor, well now part-time professor. If you need me to tell you how to get a girlfriend or boyfriend, it's already over. Here is a book called Xenobilia and the author knew Socrates. Or "Ascent of Sirus".. great book.

In all the dialogues and comedies of errors, Socrates is shown talking to a woman only 3 times. In one of those times, we can prove she exactly existed. It wasn't recollected speech either. It actually happens on stage. This is presented as a real conversation, the only real conversation Socrates ever has with a woman in the literature.

I found this fascinating. I read this book in grad shcool and it didn't occur to me what this passage was about. Years later, totally for analytical purposes, like- it used to be a cliche in 1970s-- why have a stack of Playboys well it's only for the articles... I read this back in the heyday of the manosphere in the 2007-2010 era of the pick up blogs. I was only reading these for the articles... right. I was reading this and I was wondering where I had seen this.

It was from the Memorabilia. Socrates talks to a woman. In this conversation, what happens? In these dialogues, he is talking to some people, they ask some question, he gives an annoying answer or question. He is almost always talking to men. One of his companions goes up to and says we gotta go right now. Why? Theodonte is here and she is receiving visitors and we have to see her. Why? They say her beauty surpasses speech. He says, well, okay, we better to go have a look because the only way to prove this is to go and look.

They go to her place in Athens. She was known in Greek as a "hetori". It's like a high class escort/hooker/geisha. Theodonte was a hetori. Not just beautiful but the expectation is educated and charming. At the famous drinking party symposiums, the only women allowed at these were hetori- you couldn't bring your wife. As I was reading this, I was thinking wow, there's an amazing coincidence between the pick up artist techniques and Socrates' techniques in talking with this woman.

I'll just roll through a few. I won't read more than a few highlights. I managed to get published in 2014 in a peer reviewed journal about this. It was sort of a miracle.

You have a girl and you want to keep them. If you want babies, then somehow men and women have to get together. You have to maintain attraction. Not just initially attractive. You have to maintain this. How does Xenophob show this? In the Economica- the skilled household manager.. the central conversation is a perfect gentleman who owns a greek farm how he educated his household and his wife. Xenophob doesn't tell you in that book. The wife's name was Percella. She left her husband and became the mistress of her son-in-law's, that is her own daughter's husband. Her daughter tried to hang herself in despair. Of this whole sorted outcome, ... this guy is talking about weights and measures like money, the orderliness of the pantry, he's all about the economics of the marriage. There is nothing erotic or attractive about this guy at all and there's this massive age gap because he married her when she was 15 or something. So let's say you have a 22 year gap there. This whole thing ends disasterously because this dullard couldn't maintain attraction.

A second pick up artist tenant, called "outcome independence". It means you have to genuinely, if you want to succeed, and again this is just them talking, I don't endorse any of this, they would say you have to best of all you have to genuinely not care if you ask a girl for a date and they say no. You have to not care. The best of all is that you really don't care. If it burns your soul, then you have to at least fake sincerity that you don't care.

This is demonstrated in the Theodonte dialogue where people come to her and beg her to take them on as a client. But Socrates just genuinely deep down doesn't care. He doesn't just show it, but he actually feels it. There's a tension between Theodonte and Socrates. She says that she consort or deal with 'cresti'- those who persuaded her. You could come to Theodonte and ask her to sing at your wedding or something and she would look at you and make a decision. With Socrates, there wer a lot of people in Athens who wanted to talk to Socrates. Then there were people who wanted to talk to him desperately because he was the wisest man in Greece and he wouldn't want that because they are boring or something. But this woman was used to having slobbering men begging for her attention, and she had this fat guy Socrates not even wanting her. He keeps his distance from her. He's "outcome independent".

One-itis is another problem. It's like inflammation. The pick up artists would say if you are so infatuated with one girl and only one girl then you will never get anywhere. The first worst thing is to feel it. The other worst thing is that if you do feel it, then you have to find a way to hide it. A love that shows through mopy despondent behavior is what gets you into trouble.

Now I will tell you another story about the Persian empire... one of the lt come to Cyrus after they win a battle. Ladies, don't get offended here. Things were different then. They are not up to the norms we have today. We captured a lot of prizes and we saved the prettiest ones for you. Osirus said don't even show me her. I don't want to look at her. I wouldn't be able to get any work done. Cyrus won't even look at her. But as soon as Socrates is told her beauty surpasses her speech, he goes huh that's weird let's go check that out. But the emperor of persia says, uh, he assigns someone and says you take care of her and the guy goes yeah I can handle it. Well, he doesn't. He becomes madly in love with the woman. This woman's name is Panthea.. and her husband, a defeated king... Panthea is returned to her husband, unmolested, and now he is so grateful that he allies himself with Cyrus and then fights a battle in which he is killed. This guy tricked you, he gave me back to you- wailing about this after his death- in order to submit to your loyalty, and then he uses this loyalty and now you're dead so she kills herself in despair.

Another phrase from is "not all women are like that". If you read that on a PUA blog, what it actually means is that all women really are like that. What Xenophont does here... he depicts two polls: an extremely disloyal wife, and then Panthea who is extremely loyal and kills herself because of her husband's foolishness even though he didn't betray her directly. These are the two extremes being shown.

Abundance mentality is another thing you get from PUA blogs. What does that mean? It's outcome independence and a belief that there are plenty of fish in the sea. If you get shotdown or someone breaks up with you, then just know that you will get someone else in a few hours. Don't get mopey or have scarcity mentality.

Socrates goes into the conversation with Theodonte with abundance mentality. He doesn't care if she talks with him or not. For Socrates, there's plenty of fish in the sea. In book 3, chapter 11, it's a parody. It's meant to be a parody of Socrates and his circle. Maybe there is someone Socrates really wanted to talk to, like the famous trader who ran off during the middle of the polypenesian war. Socrates, he's not that worried about it, he has abundance mentality.

Demonstrating higher value and setting the frame... to generate attraction a man has to convince a woman that in the traits he cares about that his status is higher than her status. Socrates has no money, he is famously poor. He's ugly, she's beautiful. She has conventional status. He is despised in Athens, except by his circle. But conventionally this is head cheerleader versus lowest dork in the math club. He should in theory have no shot in maintaining her interest. But somehow he does, thorugh wit especially and by using his dialectical skill that we see on display in other dialogues to put her on her backfoot and cause her to be confused. Through this conversation, he makes her want to impress him.

At the same time, he is putting on a show for his crew who is around him. There are prominent people from Socrates' inner circle.

Another one is compliance tests.. it has another word, shit test. I won't say it out loud. It's not family friendly and this is a natalism conference. Compliance tests, though. They both give each other commands and prompts and see if the other will follow. I haven't been on a date since 1997 but if you want to date her, you need to get her to buy the drink. You need to get her to do things for you. This is shown in the book in the way that Socrates deals with Theodonte. He turns the tables with him. He gets her to agree to things ostensibly against her interests or even against her will ostensibly.

The way the rest of it plays out is that she completely accepts his frame and then asks him okay how do I run my own business better. If my business is "hunting friends", then how do I hunt friends better? Socrates then explains to her how he ought to do this and you ought to be doing this and ought to not be doing something else etc.

There is also push/pull dynamics. It basically means to run hot and cold. Socrates recommends to Theodonte. He recommends to her to induce desire, flee, wait to be desired and chased, and then rekindle the flame. This is textbook about running hot and cold.

She asks him for a spell about how to catch people in her web. Socrates says no. She asks him in a pleading way, if I come and see you will you explain this to me? He finally says... maybe. If no other females dearer to me than you happen to be around at that time. That is an especially ironic point because we almost never see him talking to a woman.

The spider has become the fly by the end of the speech. Socrates doesn't even want her really. He just wants to play the game just as performance art for his circle.

If you don't want to read PUA blogs, then just read this instead. It's all in there.