Enthusiasm and reason [Was Re: Wired Article]

From: Max More (max@maxmore.com)
Date: Sat Dec 18 1999 - 12:22:07 MST


At 09:47 AM 12/18/99 +0000, Geoff Smith wrote:
Max More wrote:

> <warning mode>
> I have faced the fact that I may really and finally die. I suspect some of
> you are already utterly convinced of your immortality. That's where
> extropian thinking ends and dogma begins.
> </warning mode>

I'm not sure to whom this warning is directed.  In fact, I can't imagine
a rational person being utterly convinced of their immortality.  I don't
think I've ever seen a transhumanist suggest it

True, no one (that I recall) has suggested that immortality is guaranteed. It's more subtle than that. Enthusiasm can slide over into unrealistic expectations and they can further slide over into dogmatic insistence of something being true. It's useful to have a clear distinction between rationality and dogmatism, but in practice it's a spectrum. I'm all for enthusiasm, but I *do* think I have a responsibility to ward off any possible slide in our community towards unrealism and dogmatism. Extropians have been criticized for not considering the downsides to the technological developments we foresee. At least in reference to the early days, I think there is some justice in that criticism. Personally, I'm working to address it (you'll be seeing some of the results of this very soon). I'm glad that Foresight Institute and WTA under Nick have also turned towards considering risks and dangers. I'm all for this, but that doesn't mean giving up our enthusiasm! If the occasional warning kills off zeal, as you suggest, then it a weak kind of zeal it must have been!

Now, obviously, I agree entirely with your "warning," but I really think
you're preaching to the choir.  If anything extropianism needs more
zeal!  Less warnings, more happiness.  Show by example the vibrant
living that stems from a transhumanistic lifestyle, regardless of
whether it brings about immortality.  Sometimes, an observer to this

So, you do agree after all! I'm sure I am "preaching to the choir" (horrible expression!) for the most part, but I'm sure the warning is properly directed at a few who may have developed their imaginative skills more than their critical skills at this point.

Thank you for what you say above--I completely agree in wanting to see more expressions of joy, enthusiasm, excitement. Not that we don't see those, but more would be good in this kind of forum. In other fora (the FAQ, conferences, analytical essays, etc.) the tone might not be so appropriate.

Since I've already been fairly hypocritical in my critiquing of
critique,(and bickering about bickering) I might as well go all out by
giving a quick illustration of my point:

Two of our founders, Max and Natasha once used the very pleasant and
zealous sign-offs:

"Onward!"

Actually, I haven't stopped using that (check through some of my back posts), though certainly I use it less often. It may be a bit too enthusiastic for communicating with some people, though I shall henceforth make a point of using it (or similar consistently) on this list. Better?

Maybe it's just the 90's, the 80's were a much more enthusiastic decade
(fueled by coke, maybe?)  I think the "naughties" will be different,
part of the problem is the precipitation of millennial fear -- hard to
avoid it when around 20% of Americans(highest percentage in the world!)
believe the millennium will bring about the Apocalypse.  Either way,
it's time for things to change.

Interesting, because I don't see it that way at all. It seems to me that, at least in the USA, the 90s have been a quite optimistic decade, at least as much as the '80s, and vastly more so than the 70s. At the end of the 90s we are seeing an unprecedented optimism about technology and the economy. BTW, "Apocalypse" for many believers is *not* a bad thing--it's a wonderful transformation for those "saved". It's kind of like a Singularity without danger (as long as you're on the right side....).

Onward and upward!

Max

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