From: Eric Watt Forste (arkuat@idiom.com)
Date: Wed Nov 17 1999 - 17:14:53 MST
Billy Brown writes:
> Eric Watt Forste wrote:
> > Again, if it's going to be functioning in space, with a closed
> > boundary, with living organisms in it, then it *is* a complete
> > ecosystem. The question is not whether or not you need a
> > complete ecosystem, the question is whether the ecosystem you
> > construct will flourish or die.
> No, the question is whether you need to imitate a natural biosystem, or
> whether some functions can be performed by mechanical systems. Your
> arguments notwithstanding, all experience to date suggests that the answer
> is a definite yes.
I'm not talking about imitating a natural biosystem. I'm talking
about constructing a closed ecosystem, which is the phrase that we
use to describe the kind of systems you are advocating also. My
argument has been that there have been only a few closure experiments
done so far, and therefore that "all experience to date" is simply
too little information to warrant the kind of assertions you are
making.
> > The system you describe, a closed system with just a few
> > species, has actually been attempted in early closure
> > experiments. It proved, empirically, unstable. So I don't know
> > why you feel that we already know how to do this when past
> > attempts to do so have failed.
> Exactly who has performed such an experiment, when, and under what
> circumstances? AFAIK nothing of the sort has ever been attempted, because
> no one has ever needed to do it.
Oh, so you're *admitting* that you have no evidence, and that you
haven't even studied the empirical results of the various closures
that preceded Biosphere 2 (all of which were much less ambitious
and closer to your desired criteria). In that case, we are in
complete agreement. You're indulging in wishful thinking, and it
was misunderstanding on my part to think that you were claiming
that the technology already exists and has been tested.
In the meantime, you might want to look into the Yevgeny Shepelev
closure of 1961 (try google.com, and you might even find out about
other early closure experiments that I haven't come across yet).
The history of these experiments is pitifully short and our current
ignorance of closed systems (such as our lives will depend on
utterly if we are to leave this planet permanently in our
current form) is woeful.
I'm arguing that we need more research. If you're arguing that we
don't, then please point me to where I can find the empirical
results that support your arguments. In this crucial field, the
basic scientific research has barely even begun.
-- arkuat
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