From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Tue Dec 03 2002 - 20:40:57 MST
Reason wrote
> > Reason spent hours and hours thinking about bioethics, built
> > a web-site http://www.bioethicssucks.org and came up with,
> > get this, not an *opinion* on bioethics, but that the entire
> > field um, er, sucks.
>
> Isn't that an opinion? :)
Well, yes.
> [And it's not built yet -- barely even started. This is the idea and
> resource soliciting stage. I hope to have it finished within the next couple
> of weeks, and then go into publicizing and infrequent update mode].
>
> > So I write (because I truly am shocked, not having, duh,
> > carefully NOTED the NAME of the web site)
>
> Well, this conversation would be easier in person; it's hard to put the
> right tone of voice to all of that. I'm really not sure what your intended
> effect is.
Sorry. I just meant that I had stupidly not noticed the *name*
of the site!
But I fear that the more I protest this point, the more
likely it will be taken to mean that I am deeply into
sarcasm ;-)
> > All right, how about this? Since many of us truly believe
> > that any unnecessary animal suffering is deplorable, inhumane,
> > cruel, and makes the universe a worse place, there *is* need
> > for people to carefully consider what sorts of ethics are
> > appropriate for human beings---the masters of Earth despite
> > the claims of certain insects---in regard to how we treat
> > animals. Since this is true, the study of such ethics is
> > an appropriate activity for philosophers and other thinkers.
> > Such a study could logically be called bioethics.
> >
> > What do you say to that?
>
> I'd say fair enough. But it's just renaming a field of ethics. When I say
> bioethics, I'm taking the current common meaning; i.e. people who want to
> govern, advise on and control medical and biotechnological advances on
> supposedly ethical grounds.
But to *me* it's extremely ethical to raise cattle for slaughter,
for example. Consider the alterative: people stop raising cattle
and they go practically extinct! Now what would a *true* advocate
of animal rights want? He or she would want the greatest possible
benefit for his or her clients. Clearly, that does not mean
extinction, but ever more numbers (and with ever less suffering,
of course). But alas, we have all these charlatans who only
pretend to be animal advocates, because they don't understand
the reality of the situation.
> One would suppose that one of my points is that
> this current meaning of bioethics is not in the same class as your meaning
> above there -- it's a sham cover for luddites and control freaks who don't
> mind killing people to feel comfortable. Ethics really doesn't come into it
> any more than in professional politics.
I know what you mean. It's like when you see the name of
the group contained the word "Concerned", e.g., "Concerned
Physicians". It sort of gives away their ideological stance.
> > > Indeed. It's entirely possible that I
> > > project my understanding of the world
> > > on these people, and find that (in my
> > > model) the only way their stance makes
> > > sense is if they are lying through their
> > > teeth to justify irrational prejudices.
> >
> > Well then, forget it. Occasionally you
> > see old standard bearers of some discarded
> > philosophy so unable to come to grips with
> > the fact that they were wrong, had been
> > wrong for decades, that they resort to all
> > sorts of self-deception, including lying
> > to themselves. They can even lie to others
> > in cases where they think that it's a temporary
> > lie (or simplification) because the others
> > "just don't understand". But I currently don't
> > know anyone like that in either RL or on-line.
>
> Lucky you. Perhaps I'm just in the wrong subculture,
> but self-deception is a way of life for far too many
> people I know.
OH! Self-deception. Oh yes, I agree. But I thought
that you were talking about lying. I really think of
self-deception along with delusion as being the
maintenance of false belief---and we are all subject
to that from time to time.
Do you really know of any people who are out and out
lying? (I think that there are some, I just cannot
think of any or do not know of any.)
Lee
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