From: William (williamweb@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun Oct 13 2002 - 04:12:05 MDT
> ------------------------------ See comments
below: -----------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:36:09 +0100
> From: J Corbally <icorb@indigo.ie>
> Subject: Coming Trends: Fading Extropy?
>
> >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:52:32 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Samantha Tennison <xytrope@yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Coming Trends: Fading Extropy?
> >Hi everyone,
> >Here are some trends that I've been noticing that have
> >on the whole turned my head upside down from the
> >direction I perceived things to be going. More and
> >more I've begun to suspect that I have led an isolated
> >idealistic life and somehow imagined that liberty and
> >freedom, on the whole, were increasing around the
> >world, but instead the opposite has been happening,
> >even before 9-11.
> ><snip>
I agree that liberty and freedom are NOT on the increase
in most parts of the world.
> >And here is another surprise from Europe: If present
> >demographic trends continue, Europe will become
> >muslim.
Yesterday I read an interesting critique of Islam at
http://answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html. It is written
by an Evengelical Christian but I did check every quote he made from
the Koran since he cited them by chapter and verse numbers. (The
Koran is structurally organized exactly like the Bible. Yes, I bought a
copy of the Koran.) I have read scriptures from the other major religions
e.g. the Vedas of Hinduism and Tae-Te-Ching of Taoism and have never
found any lines that advocate war like the Koran does. Mohammed
was a military general and grew very wealthy and powerful. His biography
reminds me of Gengis Khan except that Mohammed was much better at
the rationalization of violence and thus recruiting of soldiers.
> Unlikely. There'll be a nominal Islamic minority, but the entirety of
> Europe is unlikely to change.
>
> >Recently at an Ecunumerical conference in
> >England, the head of the Anglican Church called for
> >assistance in assimilating Muslims into the
> >communities. The leaders of the Muslim church said
> >that Muslim's *do not* assimilate, and they they will
> >in fact assimilate Europe, and that the majority of
> >Europe will be subject to conservative muslim law!
>
> You're overreacting. You do know that the Anglican Church is all but
dead,
> and is considered more of a hobby church these days? Do you really
believe
> some Muslim who says his religion will subsume all of Europe? And how do
> you think we'd get from modern secular laws to Muslim law? Civil war? Do
> you really think Europeans would vote in systems like those of the Middle
> East, systems that have parallels with Nazi Germany? Do you think we're
> fond of the kinds of practices that pass for "law" there? That we'd tear
> up the European and U.N. Declarations on Human Rights?
>
> It's likely the British will remove the special positions reserved for the
> Bishops in the House of Lords in the next few years. Many members of the
> Anglican church (including many top ranking members) publicly support
> Disestablishment, as does a majority of the British public. 30-45% of the
> British public have no professed religious beliefs, and church attendance
> is at its lowest ever and still heading downward. Their never-used
> blasphemy law will probably be gone before 2010.
>
> The power of the Church has been broken here in Ireland. We have sex
> shops, escort agencies and topless dancing, things unimaginable 20 years
> ago. There's barely a priest under 45 yrs old these days, and few new
ones
> coming onboard. Most people don't even listen to the public
pronouncements
> of the clergy. They're a joke (take a look at the TV programme "Father
> Ted"), and most people seem happy enough to be non-practising
> Catholics. The proximity of the Northern Ireland conflict has ensured
> people here have little time for sectarianism.
>
> Islam is not well liked here. Do you really think the IRISH would choose
a
> religion of alcoholic abstention?
>
> One of the worlds most democratic "Muslim" states will likely become part
> of the EU within this decade. In order to be considered for membership,
> they've had to change THEIR laws, end Islamic-style punishments, empower
> women, provide free speech, etc. If there's such a thing as
assimilation,
> then who's assimilating who? And they're still not done yet. They'll
have
> to accept EU wide human rights declarations and do some serious
> humanitarian cleanup. If a new wave of Islam was ever to sweep across
> Europe, it'll be so moderate, so diluted as to be a "hobby" religion of
> it's own. The most tolerant and moderate versions of Islam ever to exist
> occured in Europe. We've done Islam, and we're unlikely to go back to
> it. But Europe may in future be the location of an Islamic Renaissance
> that would make it compatible with modern secular society. Islam will
> adapt to Europe, not vice versa.
>
> Many other European nations are moving further and further from having
> strong religious movements. In some, non-believers outnumber the
believers.
>
> We're not about to embrace religious conservatism anytime soon.
>
>
> James...
>
>
> >So unless we escape into the space frontier, the world
> >will continue to become more repressive, not to
> >mention the increases in one-way surveillance, digital
> >lock-downs (DRM), biometrics, massive dataveillance
> >and GPS tracking (i.e. chip implants), and Minority
> >Report style societies.
> >Unless New Frontiers are opened - the end result will
> >be the world becoming a giant hyper-controlled
> >microprocessor, with ever minutia of our lives being
> >regulated in the name of public safety and
> >conservative (muslim and Christian values).
> >Anyone care to counter any of this?
> >~Sam
>
> "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home
and
> crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with
treasures
> to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
> - -Q, Star Trek:TNG episode 'Q Who'
>
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