From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Sat Sep 07 2002 - 12:53:41 MDT
Technotranscendence wrote:
> On Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:29 PM Harvey Newstrom
> mail@HarveyNewstrom.com wrote:
>
>>>The War on Business
>>>by William L. Anderson
>>>
>>>With the recent guilty plea of former Enron executive Michael Kopper,
>>
> it
>
>>>seems that the floodgates are now officially open in the government's
>>>war against American business.
>>
>>I don't understand this position. These executives
>>faked results. Their companies did not produce
>>value or make results. The shareholders lost all
>>their money while the fake reports said they were
>>making money. What little real money came in
>>was secretly diverted to the executives so the
>>shareholders did not even get that. As these
>>businesses collapse, the shareholders are left with
>>nothing. They were duped out of their investments
>>on deals that were known to be fraudulent.
>
>
> Actually, in most these cases it remains to be proved that people
> knowingly committed fraud. Accusations aren't enough here. Intent must
> be proved.
In the one you put forward as making the point the exec has
already pleaded guilty. There is nothing to be proved in such a
case. The smoking guns are certainly present. The huge lost to
investors is obvious. Yes we have some formalities in court to
dance through but it is surely not very reasonable to take the
position at this point that it is uncertain that some very
untoward things occurred. Who is responsible for them remains
to be answered.
>
> However, yes, if you are right about this, then, yes, these people
> should be prosecuted. And there's no need for new laws or a vigorous
> prosecutorial campaign. Also, this should be a basically civil not
> criminal action. The goal should be to get the money back -- as much as
> possible -- from the executives found guilty of fraud.
>
IANAL but it is my understanding that fraud is a major felony.
Just giving the money back is not in the least sufficient.
>
>>The executives took their money and gave them lies
>>instead of real opportunity. No shareholder who lost
>>their life savings would consider this to be "American
>>Business".
>
>
> Actually, a lot of novice investors think just that. They think that
> this is how business works. Given the calls for jail time and the
> like -- which won't refund any investor money and actually will costs
> investors more, since they'll be paying for the trials and the prison
> cells -- I think basically this has turned into a class warfare issue.
>
If they did what we think was done then they most certainly
should do real jail time.
>
>>The government is trying to prosecute crooks. There is
>>no war on American Business. Legitimate companies
>>producing real products and making real money have
>>nothing to fear.
>
>
> No exactly true. First, the government did not prove wrong doing before
> the arrests. Since these guys are not likely to flee and also not
> violent criminals, the arrests and parading before the media was purely
> a political stunt aimed at giving the masses circuses when no bread is
> forthcoming.
>
You arrest people on reasonable suspicion, charge them and take
them to court. You don't prove the case before the arrests.
For the people of this country to for a minute believe that
justice is more than a word arrests over this fiasco had to
occur. There should also be a congressional investigation into
government complicity and involvement in the mess.
> Second, with more government intrusions into the market -- proffered by
> the myth that somehow before last summer we had total laissez faire
> capitalism (each new episode of government intervention is always
> predicated that we had economic anarchy until the new interventions are
> in place). In this area, there will restrictions on how people can
> invest, e.g., in 401 (k)s.
>
YAWN. Yes, sort of, and so what? The real problem is broader
and deeper.
- samantha
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