From: Dan Fabulich (dfabulich@warpmail.net)
Date: Sun Sep 01 2002 - 00:36:13 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
> The reason that Calvin's or Damien's quote should be criticized
> is that there *really is a real world out there*, just as the
> quote admitted. Okay, so when we talk, we *talk* about what is
> out there.
The key insight is this: You're just making yourself feel good when you
talk like this. What the heck are you saying when you say that you talk
about the *real* world? Why is it that this is always said with italics,
with <em>phasis? Did you notice that it always is?
Well, I suppose I must agree that our statements Really Are Right(!!!),
that we *are*, _in fact_, correct.
You see how little I'm saying here? I'm just punctuating whatever it is
I'm saying. Boosterism for the modern philosopher.
But, hey, a little solidarity never hurt us. So of course *we* talk about
the *real* world! (WOO! Go team!!!)
> Of course "it's naive to suppose that culture and language" capture
> everything about it, and indeed we all have our own filters and so
> on. And nobody defends "hating and fearing" those who are different.
> But the postmodernists don't stop there; they go too far. They
> start talking as though they mean it when they say that the
> world out there is constructed.
It's just a different definition of "world." The notion *does* capture
some important insights... it's interesting in that regard.
> > We build the words, we build the language, and we build what it is for
> > words in language to be "true." We only built the "world" if you think
> > that the "world" is just "whatever it is that makes our sentences true."
> > This is a clever definition, but not one anybody outside of their study
> > actually uses.
>
> Yes. But come now, don't concede to this "we build..." blah blah blah.
Look, if you let me get away with all that, then I should hardly think
you'd mind it if I said that, in SOME non-trivial sense, we've built "the
world".
As usual, we shouldn't go overboard with an interesting misreading like
this one, but I think there's a lot to learn from it as well.
> Languages and cultures *evolve*, and they evolve as does everything
> else living to cope with the real world around them. If you are
> any sort of realist, you intuitively understand this, and you
> understand that this postmodernist solipsism is an overreaction.
It's an overreaction, but it's just that: a little too much.
> > For example, in ordinary language, when I say "the real world" I talk
> > "about" something "non-mental." Maybe we'll all change our minds about
> > what we mean by those terms, but I rather doubt I'll do so in my
> > practical day-to-day conversations, in the course of doing scientific
> > work, or when discussing an interesting dream I had last night.
>
> You "rather doubt" that we'll all change our minds about
> what we mean by those terms?? There is NO WAY anyone is
> going to change the sensible ways that all societies have
> used realistic language for about the last 500,000 years
> or so!
<ahem> Math and science have already made extensive use of the theories of
language models that postmodern thinking have created/inspired.
> I'd love it if a postmodern academic went to get his car fixed, and the
> mechanic shoved a lot of the crap right back in his face, [...]
Did you miss the take-away from my earlier post? Here it is again, if you
missed it.
> > Nobody, not even the postmoderists, wants engineers to be ambivalent
> > between medieval and Netwonian physics when bridges are built. That
> > should be your take-away from this message, especially if it helps you
> > to appreciate that a lot of smart people in academia are working on
> > some very cool stuff.
Anyway, if my mechanic really DID start talking like this, I must say I'd
actually be rather pleased to know that my mechanic had a good brain on
his shoulders, that he could see the problem from many angles, but I'd
hope that he'd finally come down and agree with the rest of us, and
participate in the cultural mores we've created together, by fixing my
engine in exchange for money. If he didn't, I'd take culturally
appropriate steps, such as refusing to pay him and taking my vehicle
elsewhere.
-Dan
-unless you love someone-
-nothing else makes any sense-
e.e. cummings
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