From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 2002 - 20:53:23 MDT
gts writes
> Rafal,
>
> I would like to respond in detail to your last message. However I am
> busy at the moment and may not have time to do so, at least for another
> day or two. For now...
> The mesolimbic system (and lower systems) is sometimes referred to as
> the "reptilian brain." Do you deny that reptiles experience a sense of
> reward when they, for example, capture and devour their prey?
I would say that we don't know for sure. That is, however our
usages of "pleasure" and "reward" evolve during the coming
centuries, it is now an open question as to whether a reptile
has experiences of this kind.
My own guess is that they do not. I could ask you a rhetorical
question too, namely, "does a bimetalic strip experience fear
as it bends away from a flame"? Not all machines necessarily
support the hardware and software for emotions. Since we *have*
found our limbic system to be the seat of our emotions, it is
not unreasonable to suppose that since reptiles don't have them,
they don't have emotions.
The fundamental question that we can ask, and perhaps answer
now is, In what way would having emotions benefit the survival
of reptiles? Of ants?
> If so then why do you suppose they bother to hunt and eat?
They just do. They're just machines. My car doesn't want to
accelerate when I press the pedal, it just does. (We are
machines too, but much more sophisticated, of course.)
> I submit that the satisfaction that comes from understanding an abstract
> scientific concept is qualitatively no different than that which a mouse
> feels upon learning how to negotiate a maze to find a bit of cheese. I
> have no doubt that the mouse who first learns the maze feels at least as
> happy as the human who first grasps Einstein's relativity theory.
I agree! The mouse's brain is enough like ours that your
classy parallel makes sense.
> For example it is the height of vanity and self-deception to pat one's
> own back and think of oneself as an "altruist" when in fact one in
> merely acting according to the genes that encode for socially
> constructive behavior.
I'll agree that it's vain to ever pat oneself on the back.
And i TOTALLY AGREE with you that the morality or niceness
or approvalness of it is NOT the issue here.
Yes. YES!!! Everything we do is because of our genes.
Everything we do is even in accordance with the laws of
physics! So what?
We still need to praise people who obey the law, are kind
to animals, and who evince cooperativeness, or, for that
matter ingenuity. We should even praise rich people for
having engaged in so many economic transactions with folks.
That's because memes are real too, and people's behavior
can be affected by what others think and by what they
think.
> It is more accurate and less vain to speak anthropomorphically
> about the genes that give us this strange urge to help others
> at our own expense.
Both levels of description are useful and correct, in my
opinion.
Lee
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