From: Brian D Williams (talon57@well.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 2002 - 14:20:44 MDT
>From: Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net>
>>Brian D Williams wrote:
>>Gee, if you'd have asked us 40 years ago we could have saved
>>several fortunes, and you'd all be speaking fluent Russian by
>>now.
>40 years ago our government wasn't the leading predatory power on
>the planet. And the US wasn't in Europe for Europe's benefit,
>though they did benefit.
Predatory?
I suppose we just bullied our way into Europe and they never
actually wanted us there at all.
>So don't get too self-righteous.
I wasn't being self-righteous I was answering a cheap shot back
with a cheap shot, tit for tat.
>We were there for our own benefit.
Mutual benefit at very minimum.
>And it worked. We thought that we had more to gain by
>building strong economies among our closer allies, and those who
>felt even more threatened by our opposition than we did. And it
>worked. To the benfit of both parties.
At least you admitted it.
>But somewhere along the way, we seem to have misplaced out moral
>compass. This frequently happens as countries become more
>powerful. Now instead of just being one of the strongest
>guys around, we're the chief bully on the planet. And don't think
>that others haven't noticed.
Nothing wrong with my moral compass. Anything wrong with yours?
What branch of the military did you serve in? Where did you serve
overseas?
I don't buy the "bully" bit so do me a favor and don't even attempt
to include me in your "we'.
>There are, of course, justifications. There are always
>justifications. There have been justifications for each step
>along the way. And all they prove is that it's possible to
>justify nearly anything. All you need to do is keep changing your
>grounds. And be vague and emotional about the logical steps
>involved.
Strawman, I've never said or implied any such thing, in fact I've
stated the exact opposite, any country that doesn't want us we
should leave.
>>I do support withdrawing U.S. troops from Europe as well as Asia
>>or anywhere else by the way.
>Be careful here now. Being the biggest bully sets you up as a
>target, but the target sign doesn't go away just as soon as you
>stop acting like a bully.
First of all I don't buy into the big bully routine. Since I was
actually one of the people standing there I know a thing or two
about it.
Second of all we wouldn't be pulling back so were less of a target,
we're leaving because our presence isn't wanted. I don't go or stay
anywhere I'm not wanted, neither should the country.
Third anybody who thinks we are a target is more than welcome to a
shot at the title.
> The basic idea is correct, but the details need to be worked
>out quite carefully. Of course, we don't really need to worry
>about this, because our government isn't going to consider
>anything that would limit it's power. Grandiose Paranoia, I
>believe it would be called in a person. You can't say, exactly,
>that it's delusional, because we *are* the biggest bully
>currently on the planet. And we *are* turning everyone into our
>enemies. And there *isn't* any obvious way out of this. But the
>grandiose paranoia is present, and the delusions that justify
>whatever we do are present, mainly in the upper levels of
>government, but to an extent they seem to have become pandemic.
>In some people it's more grandiose, and in others it's more
>protective. This tends to make rational decision making quite
>difficult. And it also tends to make the decisions that need to
>be made more difficult, at the same time. Ouch!
We don't have to be careful, we can simply hold a public referendum
in any and all countries. If they want us to leave, we dismantle
everything we've built, say "Thanks for everything" and get out.
>When we withdrew from Japan, it was after converting the Japanese
>into allies. Even then, we used our status as conquerors to
>insist on some constitutional guidelines restricting their ability
>to spend money to increase their armies. (Later, during the cold
>war, they used those same restrictions against us, when we wanted
>their army to pick up some of the burden. But those were the
>rules which we had set.) And likewise, this would be a good time
>for use to withdraw from Europe, in a staged withdrawal. But
>there are other places where the locals aren't all that friendly,
>and we have acted in such a way as to increase hostility.
>Ideally, before withdrawing, we would do something that would
>cause the people to remember us fondly after we left. In most
>places this would be possible, but a bit of care is needed, and,
>to copy an earlier thread, local knowledge would need to be
>applied to make the gesture effective. Simple bribery is rarely
>a good answer, though a good public works project will often help.
>Preferably with local construction done by local people. The
>trick is creating a sturcture that will remain intact and durable.
>This requires that it be maintainable by local people, and that
>the maintenance not cost them more than the benefit that they get
>from it. In some places, this could be accomplished by a water
>and sanitation project, but local knowledge is required.
We ever left Japan, we still have bases there, I served there for
more than a year. Look at all the trouble they've had on Okinawa.
In every country I served in with the exception of Korea, everybody
gets big mileage out of the "Yankee-go-Home" routine, I say give
them what they want.
No, when it's time to go, say "Thanks" and go, and oh, by the way,
next time you're up to your ass in alligators, don't bother
calling.
I thought the classic was the Philipines, they wanted us out and at
the same time Mount Pinatubo erupted destroying our two major bases
there.
Sweet.
Brian
Member:
Extropy Institute, www.extropy.org
National Rifle Association, www.nra.org, 1.800.672.3888
SBC/Ameritech Data Center Chicago, IL, Local 134 I.B.E.W
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